Scientology and medical treatment

I saw some really disgusting posts today and I want to put something straight here. It’s from scientology.org. Check out the glossary on scientologymyths.info if you have a question, or ask me.

Do Scientologists use medical doctors?

Yes. The Church of Scientology has always encouraged its staff and parishioners to see medical doctors to handle the physical aspect of any illness or injury. Once a Scientologist with a physical condition receives the needed medical treatment he can resume his auditing and so handle any spiritual trauma connected with the physical condition. Many medical doctors also are Scientologists.

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58 Comments

  1. once you are physically ill scientology auditing can’t remove your illness away. you can if you feel you can. if you allow yourself. there are people who had cancer before 1950. and some of them won the fight.. optimism and belief in oneself. dianetics is here simply to show the way how to discharge accumulated pain and emotion from ones past.. it is written in the way that anyone understands it and if that one is willing to try the technique with his friend he sure can try it. home. no one has to know about it. he doesn’t even need to set his foot into an scn org. and then, after some time get the truth. is that technique working for him…

  2. the following conclusion from my perspective would then be that : i was mocking up 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th and 7th dynamic reactive mind and have stopped doing so.. the effect of that cognition could easily be insufficient to some people and that could explain to me why there are people claiming that there are no Clears or OTs. mind is an esoteric abstract thing to an ordinary person who has no deeper insight and experience and a result such as A Friend mentioned above surely would be worthless to those every day common folks.

  3. Another thing, my sister didn’t grow up in a Scientology environment. My mom has a Scientology background, my grandmother is a Freezone Scientologist.

    My sister would get speech therapy sometimes. My mom also tried chelation therapy to remove the mercury and other metals, she tried biofeedback, she tried all kinds of diets. My mom also homeschooled my sister half the time when she was growing up. Today, my sister is sixteen years old with the mentality and vocabulary of an eight year old, as well as a speech impediment. We have no idea if any of the treatments were effective or not.

    So, since my grandma is a Freezoner, my mom has Scientological views, but since they’re not involved with the Church…. that doesn’t necessarily reflect what happens with “orthodox” Scientologists and autistic kids.

    But I can tell you from observations, Scientologists tend to be totally into alternative medicine, like naturopaths, chiropractors, etc. So, it’s most likely that a Scientologist with an autistic child, if auditing didn’t seem to be working out, would take their child to a naturopath and try different diets and detoxifaction programs.

  4. Chris, here’s the deal. I don’t think Scientology is particularly against other therapies like speech therapy for autistic kids (although I could be wrong). However… they do have policies against mixing practices. If you’re getting your child auditing, your child isn’t going to be allowed speech therapy or behavior modification therapy at the same time. But I have no idea if Scientology parents of autistic kids do pursue these avenues or not.

    When I was getting auditing at ASHO, I met one lady in the Hubbard Guidance Center (that’s kind of like the waiting room where preclears wait to go into session, it’s also where the C/S’s and Director of Processing work) who had an autistic daughter, about five years old. The autistic girl was getting auditing. It’s kind of hard to describe this girl (as it’s been ten years), but I remember she seemed terrified of other people and wouldn’t talk to them if they talked with her. She seemed to enjoy her auditing sesions, though. Her mother was telling me a story about how one time, when they left the Org and drove away, the little girl started screaming and crying, “My Church! My Church!” like a toy had been taken away from her. The lady also said that her daughter wanted to be an auditor. So, it sounds likely that her daughter may have been a little bit higher functioning autistic.

    So, it seems like this lady was primarily having her daughter audited as a way to treat her autism. She didn’t seem too concerned about her daughter’s condition or how her daughter was going to turn out. I know parents can stress about whether their autistic child is getting better or not, but she seemed to think that her daughter was going to be just fine in the long run.

    The other Scientologist I met was Chaka Khan’s brother-in-law. I talked with him a little bit, and he was telling me how Chaka had founded an autism charity group to research and help find ways to cure autism, since he had an autistic son. I never met his son, so I have no idea how high or low functioning he was. I have no idea what he was doing as far as treating his son, whether he was getting his son auditing or pursuing more conventional therapies for autistic children.

    As for Jett Travolta, rumors are that he was autistic. From that paparazzi video that came out a few months ago, we can see that there’s something not right with him, just the fact that the manny was putting his seatbelt on for him. You can also see him stimming in the car. Was Jett diagnosed with autism? We don’t know, the Travoltas didn’t mention anything about autism in any of their press statements.

    Keep in mind this possibility… it’s possible that Jett’s condition might have been so bad that he wasn’t able to receive auditing. If a person’s brain isn’t properly functioning, you really can’t audit them. When my dad started to get Alzheimer’s over a year ago, my aunt tried getting him auditing, but after only two sessions, they could see that it just wasn’t going to work out. So, if Jett wasn’t getting auditing, it’s possible the Travoltas may have tried more conventional forms of therapy (although I really can’t picture Scientology parents sending their autistic kids to behavior modification therapy, but then again, I don’t know for sure either).

    Tory Christman knew in the long run that auditing wasn’t going to cure her epilepsy. I’m sure she wasn’t the only Scientologist to figure out that Scientology could only do so much, and I don’t see why the Travoltas would be exempt from those kinds of Scientologists. I think it is dangerous for critics to make accuastions like, “Jett wasn’t getting proper medical care,” when nobody really knows all the facts. Because if they’re wrong, then they’re crying wolf and they won’t be taken seriously about other issues with Scientology, like disconnection.

  5. What is NOTS34? Doesn’t it contain claims that even physical conditions could be handled with Scientology?

  6. Link: Thank you for clarifying. I still remember Pat saying she knew others with autism, I just can’t find the post. I too agree that the environment can cause illness. The town I grew up in is being studied for high cases of MS. So maybe something causes autism. If so, we should try to prove it. But, in the end the person is still sick with ms or autisim. What bothers me with Scientology is that they only talk of their methods. I am not even talking drugs here! There are special teachers to work with these children. To help them learn how to function in the world. Scientology seems to be cult like. Only being around those that are the same religion. That is why I asked what kind of treatmnet your sister had. Sometimes, we can’t cure something. But through medication AND therapy, we can provide a better quality of life. The Travolta’s seem like good people who love their children. But, they let Scientology prevent them from not curing their son, but providing him with the best quality of life either by medication, therapy, or both. I keep hearing drugs, drugs, drugs. But what about other forms of treatment? Will a Scientologist take their child to a special needs school where they can work to teach these children?

  7. Bernie, there are PTS Type I, II and III. Type I is when you are connected to an actual SP. Type II is when you are connected to somebody who restimulates an SP in your case. And I think Type III is when lots of things restimulate the SP in your case and the way LRH phrased it, “Surrounded by imaginary evils,” I don’t remember exactly, it’s been nine years since I read the reference. But my understanding was that all people who had nervous breakdowns and going schizophrenic were PTS Type III.

    These PTS conditions have to do with when you have illnesses or accidents. The rule is that “All illnesses and all foul-ups stem directly from a PTS condition,” or something along those lines. So, if you catch a cold? That means you are PTS. Did you get into a car accident? That means you are PTS. When you are PTS, you have to find out who the SP is, and then you handle or disconnect.

    Then there are the other PTS Types with regard to Ethics Policies, like Type A, Type B, Type C, etc. Type A meaning, “Someone who is intimately associated with someone antagonistic toward Scientology or spiritual improvement.” I know what you’re talking about regarding Magoo, but I don’t know what letter that is. But these PTS situations have more to do with somebody being eligible for Scientology services. If you are connected to someone hostile toward Scientology, then you are not eligible for auditing. If you think famous people like celebrities or the president should have free services, then you are PTS (don’t know what type) and aren’t eligible for auditing. Just examples.

    And I thought what they were doing to handle Lisa was called the “Introspection Rundown.” I’ve heard other stories of crazy people being put in Introspection Rundowns, but I don’t know if they got better or not.

  8. Hey, Truth, I’m not sticking up for them regarding Lisa McPherson. I was the one that said they weren’t getting her proper medical care. So, Valium and chloral hydrate aren’t “psych drugs” then?

    I was the one that said I knew Scientologists with autistic kids, not Pat. I don’t know what these parents did specifically to treat their kids’ autism. And really, I was just acquainted with them, I didn’t talk with them in depth about what they tried to do to treat their kids’ autism. I also have a father with Alzheimer’s who is being cared for by Scientologists. And I have an autistic sister who is raised by a mom with Scientology views (although not involved with the Church) and with a Scientologist grandma (although she’s a declared SP). So, I know all about people trying auditing, trying diets, trying chelation therapy, seeing naturopaths, etc.

    I’m just saying that I’m not going to assume the statement, “Scientologists believe that the Purif can cure autism” to be true. I’m sure the Travoltas had Jett do the Purif. Did that cure whatever it was that was wrong with him? No, so I’m sure they were searching for other answers. We don’t know all the circumstances regarding what was wrong with him or what the Travoltas were doing to treat him, and we probably never will.

    My philosophy of knowledge is that I do not know everything, I do not know all the answers. I was in Scientology for six years. I still talk with Scientologists. I don’t claim to know everything about it, but I have my experience to go off of. I just like to keep my facts straight so that I, as a critic, can be taken seriously about certain things like disconnection. I don’t like to make assumptions, I only like to go off of what I do know for sure.

  9. “Let’s say a child developes Autism as we know it. And it was caused from too much mercury in the childs body (one way or another). Scientology is trying to say that all this person needs to do is do the Purif and eat right and all will be cured.”

    Here’s the deal. I don’t know EVERYTHING about Scientology, and I really don’t know much about what Scientologists with autistic kids do to treat their kids. I’m sure they probably do a lot of their own research to look for physical causes, probably consult with naturopaths, probably put them on all kinds of diets, etc. They may try the Purif, but I think to remove the mercury, they would just give the child chelation therapy (which, as far as I know, is the only way to effectively remove mercury from the body). Every autistic child is different. One thing I know about parents with autistic kids is that they’re not going to stop looking for answers. If what Hubbard has to say doesn’t provide improvement for their child, they will look for answers elsewhere (but that doesn’t mean they’ll abandon Scientology).

    I think most Scientologists are realistic, consciously or unconsciously, about what Scientology can and can’t do for people. I believe the Travoltas knew that Scientology probably wasn’t going to cure Jett. My Scientologist aunt says, “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” My dad has Alzheimer’s, and my aunt knows that Scientology can’t help his condition (but she still refuses to consider the possibility of anti-anxiety pills or anti-depressants, which could possibly give him a better living experience).

    “To not even think that a medication may calm a mental patient enough so they can at least eat is silly. To a Scientologist that drug is out of the question….even if it gets te person to function somewhat.”

    Well, Truth, they were giving Lisa McPherson “psych drugs.” They were giving her chloral hydrate and Valium. So, apparently, they’re not totally against the use of drugs for treating Type III’s.

  10. I am not sure but I think you are mixing a few things together here, Link.

    Quote: “This is verbal data, but Hubbard talks about a condition called Potential Trouble Source Type III, which is a person who is surrounded by a bunch of imaginary evils. ”

    Minor point. I don’t think all psychotic persons necessarily think they are surrounded by a bunch of imaginary evils. That would be a paranoid type. Some of them just think incoherently. I was looking yesterday at the baby watch log of Lisa McPherson and it strike me that it was the case for her.

    Are all PTS Type III considered in Scientology as connected with an SP from the past? I think this is correct, from what I remember, but do they in effect see their surroundings as populated with evils? As I said, some psychotic are “happy” and over-optimists even, just irrational.

    Quote: “Basically, a crazy person, a person having a nervous breakdown, etc.”

    Is a person having a nervous breakdown necessarily psychotic? Or PTS Type III? Am not sure and I doubt it. As it says, this is a nervous sickness, not necessarily a mental one.

    Quote: “Once the person has calmed down and is stable, I guess (if I remember correctly) the person is then a Potential Trouble Source Type I (someone connected to a suppressive person), or a Potential Trouble Source Type II (when you’re connected to someone who reminds you of a suppressive person from your past).”

    Has the person necessarily have to go from III to II then to I? Am not sure. I think it could go straight from III to health.

    Is a PTS Type I necessarily someone connected to a suppressive person? I think there are other type of PTS. Magoo seems to have been one – the one that has a hidden standard (her seizures condition) and seek to compare Scientology through the effect it has on it.

    Quote: “It’s called the Introspection Rundown.”

    I think that your description of Scientology treatment for psychotic is quite accurate (keep them in a quiet environment, etc), but is that the called the Introspection Rundown? Am not sure about that either.

    I think these would be a nice bunch of question for our Scientologists friends.

  11. Zara, I’m sure you’ve heard of Lisa McPherson.

    This is verbal data, but Hubbard talks about a condition called Potential Trouble Source Type III, which is a person who is surrounded by a bunch of imaginary evils. Basically, a crazy person, a person having a nervous breakdown, etc. He says that the way to handle these types of people is to keep them in a safe, quiet environment, isolated from anything that could upset them, make sure they are getting enough food and rest, and make sure that they are getting proper medical care (as Pat posted above), feed them intravenously if necessary, perhaps give them mild sedatives, etc. Once the person has calmed down and is stable, I guess (if I remember correctly) the person is then a Potential Trouble Source Type I (someone connected to a suppressive person), or a Potential Trouble Source Type II (when you’re connected to someone who reminds you of a suppressive person from your past).

    It’s called the Introspection Rundown. This is usually how they handle people with psychotic breaks. Usually, the people don’t die. This is what they tried to do with Lisa McPherson. In my opinion, the reason Lisa died is probably because the people handling her probably waited too long to get her proper medical care. So, you could say that standard tech wasn’t being applied in Lisa’s case.

    I think the whole theory sounds very workable. I’d be interested in hearing anecdotes about times when the Introspection Rundown was actually successful and people recovered from nervous breakdowns.

  12. @ Comment by zara on January 31, 2009 8:10 pm

    >does anybody know how psychosis is handled in scientology? i have a good friend, she had an episode (psychotic break) maybe a year ago.. she is not familiar with scientology. i am wondering of any different ways to handle her state besides the usual medical treatment by drugs. she has got it under control now.

    Zara,

    There’s a booklet called “Assists for illnesses and injuries” that contain a few assists for someone to bring them to a point where they are in touch with the present again.

    We don’t audit anyone in this situation. The only handling is to make sure they are getting proper medical care, are eating and getting rest (lack of these can trigger someone into breaks with reality that you describe). Once someone is out of this, the reasons that predisposed someone spiritually can then be addressed.

    Pat

  13. @Comment by Truth on January 31, 2009 7:32 pm

    Please don’t link CCHR as a reliable source of information about anything Psychriatric. It’s an extremeist group unable to use logic. And based on Hubbbard’s perverted idea of what the mind is and does.

    Yeah, and don’t ever mention the word FAQ again because it creeps me out.

  14. >So, I have a question… why is it bad to categorize people as “ADD” or “obsessive-compuslsive” or “autistic”? Don’t these classifications, at the very least, help to communicate to others about specific behaviors and functions? I mean, these days, I hear people all the time say, “I”m so ADD!” to communicate how they lack focus and aren’t good at paying attention.

    Goes to show you how Psychiatry has infiltrated even normal behavior where someone loses focus as a “mental illness”.

    >Hubbard came up with his own classifcations to categorize people. He came up with the Tone Scale.”

    The Tone Scale is a scale of emotion. It’s a scale used as a tool to predict behavior. Nothing there labels people, like Psychiatry’s DSM IV does. Psychiatry labels will stick with you for life. Tones in Scientology are used to determine what to audit, to raise Tone. That’s because Scientology believes that people can get better. This is addressed very extensively in the book “Science of Survival” in the libraries. By tone alone, I can tell who is anti-social and steering himself and others around him toward non-survival or who is social and his actions of self and toward others is constructive and helping others survive more optimumly.

    Pat

  15. Comment by Chris on January 31, 2009 3:39 pm

    Comment by Link on January 29, 2009 9:16 am
    Comment by Pat:

    “Just for the record, I have an autistic younger sister and nobody ever referred to “autistic” as a “psych label” when I was in Scientology. I also knew of two other Scientologists who had autistic children.”

    This is not from me.

    Pat

  16. Link, there is a lot of truth in your words. pediatrics is avoiding treatment with antibiotics in my country at least. it should really have to be a necessity to treat a child with an antibiotic. now i understand why. i often wondered why that was so..

  17. Truth, regarding the vaccines, don’t rule them out just because the thimerosal was removed. As I said earlier, the reason autism rates are rising is because the definition for autism has changed, it has extremely broadened. Also, mercury in vaccines isn’t the only factor that could cause autism… there’s antibiotics (my sister used to get lots of ear infections). I know of one case where there were two identical twins. They were two years old, and one of them ended up getting an ear infection. He was treated with antibiotics, but later, he was diagnosed as autistic.

    Also, canned tuna contains lots of mercury in it. My mom used to eat a lot of canned tuna while she was breastfeeding my sister.

  18. does anybody know how psychosis is handled in scientology? i have a good friend, she had an episode (psychotic break) maybe a year ago.. she is not familiar with scientology. i am wondering of any different ways to handle her state besides the usual medical treatment by drugs. she has got it under control now.

  19. Chris, I’m the one with the autistic younger sister.

  20. Pat:

    My daughter wasn’t talking much at the age of 3 and we were told she had language delay. She went to speech therapy for four years and is doing much better. I can’t believe they wouldn’t just have him take tests like she did. Strange.

  21. Do I have the wrong Pat?

  22. Comment by Link on January 29, 2009 9:16 am
    Comment by Pat:

    “Just for the record, I have an autistic younger sister and nobody ever referred to “autistic” as a “psych label” when I was in Scientology. I also knew of two other Scientologists who had autistic children.”

  23. I’d also add something to the autism topic — the definition of autism has extremely broadened over the years. Today, ADD is considered an autism spectrum disorder, while years ago, it wouldn’t have. That’s why more and more kids are being diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders today than there were twenty years ago.

    So, I have a question… why is it bad to categorize people as “ADD” or “obsessive-compuslsive” or “autistic”? Don’t these classifications, at the very least, help to communicate to others about specific behaviors and functions? I mean, these days, I hear people all the time say, “I”m so ADD!” to communicate how they lack focus and aren’t good at paying attention.

    Hubbard came up with his own classifcations to categorize people. He came up with the Tone Scale.

  24. Pat, who is your last post directed at?

  25. I see why you might be confused. You evidently haven’t read the books in sequence so you can see how LRH studied the earlier philosophies and using what worked in those, formed Scientology. Over 10000 years of philosophies are part of Scientology and we study those as part of our Scientology studies. We use the parts that can be applied in life to improve life.

    Pat

  26. @Comment by Chris on January 31, 2009 3:30 am

    I never said I had a younger sister who was autistic. I said that some tried to label my 3 year old son as autistic when he hadn’t started talking yet. By the time he turned 4, he was reading AND writing 1st grade level. His very first words were a full sentence, at 3, were “Mom, will you tie my shoes?”. I was in Scientology when that occured. I knew he wasn’t autistic and I was right.

    Did you see the recent study published in American Science? They have found that “autism” being treated as a mental illness is caused by environmental toxins such as chemicals in cleaning supplies, pesticides and herbicides. It’s also been linked to some vaccinations. I don’t personally know of any existing families with autistic children, that are Scientologists. I know many families with kids and the kids are extremely bright.

    Autism is a physical (neurological) ailment. Not a mental illness. It’s been a huge money maker for the psychs to label children with a mental illness.

    You should look at the white papers and documentation on it here:

    http://www.cchr.org/#/publications/fact-sheets-reports

    Pat

  27. Pat:

    I am curious. You have a younger autistic sister. What kind of treatment did she get? Was your family in Scientology at the time? What do the other Scientologists with austistic children do as far as treatment/life skills therapy?

  28. Native State is not on the grade chart. I myself only learned about it when I met that woman. She even wrote to LRH asking to be dispensed from all the subsequent grades above the level she reached on the chart because she reached Native State. She claimed all those levels on the chart where only meant to take off charges until one reaches that state.

    Now I can’t judge whether what she said was true or not but initially I got interested in her because she came up with original explanations of Scientology when I initially met her at one of the few parties I attended in Saint Hill. For example she would say that there are no 8 dynamics but just one and that the breakdown was an illusion. Most other Scientologists would just muse on variations on the dynamics or repeat what they would have read otherwise. After a few other comments of the same caliber I came to believe she really was on to something.

    I got interested on that Native State topic after meeting her and this brought up a couple of other people who also claimed to be Native State. However, claiming is not enough, they just could not come up with the same type of insight, sometimes quite on the contrary, so I believe I only met one such person.

    She also claimed other things like for example we all have potentially the ability to “know” things, even though we are not aware of it, and that this was something we could exercise, like for example, just trying to “know” what time it was before looking at our watch. Kind of Socratic statement too. Well, whether true or not, she really was someone fascinating to listen to.

    I am mostly familiar with Eastern philosophies, not so much Western ones, though I know a thing of two about that too. I once attended philosophy classes at the University but escaped after the first lesson because I found it way too intellectual (in the sense of just playing with words). OTOH, I got philosophy lessons as a single subject in part of my curriculum and this was given by a Jesuit who was excellent at it.

    One thing I find interesting, though, is that if you study Leibniz and his theory of Monads, you will almost get an identical lecture as the one you get in Scientology regarding the static, or thetans. The other amazing aspects of this is that there too it had a very practical application, because it brought in the notion of exponential function and infinitesimal calculus in the field of mathematics. Leibniz, incidentally, was also the one who invented the binary system, foundation of virtually all modern computer architectures.

    That the two theories are similar and have both practical applications is kind of remarkable.

  29. But Bernie raised another question when he referred to someone as “Native State.”

    Now I’ve heard that phrase before in Scientology, but… Bernie was referring to that phrase as if it were some level on the Grade Chart, like Clear or OT. Is “Native State” the name of some OT level?

  30. I meant a “general philosophy” class, where you learn about different philosophers like Descartes, Kant, Anselm, Paley, etc. And different topics like God, good/evil, mind/body, free will/determination, etc.

    But Bernie answered my question very well. Thank you Bernie. :)

  31. @Comment by Link on January 29, 2009 9:16 am

    Scientology is an applied religious philosophy.

    So, yes, we have studied it.

    Pat

  32. Often the MEST universe is referred to in Scientology as something separate to the Theta universe. However, it seems from such thing as the Factors or the Axioms themselves that the MEST universe is a sort of “mock up” itself.

    The same apparent duality/non-duality is to be found in Eastern or New Age philosophies. On the one hand there would be a duality. On the other hand the claim is made that there is no real difference between the spirit and matter.

    It is also pointed that matter itself has different qualities and that each, even a stone, posses some sort of consciousness. This is most marked in the Rosicrucian philosophy. The earth matter, being more malleable than stone as an higher consciousness, the plant even more, animal even more, etc.

    This does not mean that humans are the result of evolution. In Theosophy, there is a sort of dual evolution. That from stone to animal, then the human spirit takes on animal form, descending from the spirit universe and taking on the evolved form, once this evolution has reached a certain stage, and thus that form goes from the rudimentary human to the evolved human gradually over time. All along, the spirit evolves from unconscious bliss in its initial state to conscious bliss ultimately.

    In Scientology we can see something similar with the evolution of the GE (Genetic Entity) that seems to live a parallel live in the body.

    Of course, a big difference is that Scientology views the spirit life in matter as a downward spiral, not as evolution. That’s a big difference. It views the spirit sort of similar to the Theosophy view, i.e. taking bodies on their evolutionary track, but then getting trapped in these.

    The two philosophies do converge at some point, though, as Eastern philosophies also warn that though the spirit evolves through the bodies, it can also get trapped by it.

    Ultimately, the goal of Scientology seems to get, not to OT, but back to Native State.

    I spoke to one Native State once in Saint Hill. Seeing maybe I was kind of advanced philosophically, she tried to explain to me that everything revolves around oneself as a spirit, i.e., that we create everything we perceive, that there really was no movement at all, that all this was an illusion.

    Well, I must admit that I could not grasp what she was talking about. Maybe intellectually I could but not in actuality.

    This again joins some New Age concepts to the effect that we created everything, that we are responsible for everything that happens to us.

    So, however you like to call it, I think Scientology would fit somewhere there: into a duality spirit/matter, but only to a certain level, ultimately it would align with the assertion that the MEST universe itself is an illusion which we collectively created and maintain it collectively, That reality is ultimately agreement.

  33. Comment by Pat:

    “Since when do psychiatrists look at physical problems as the cause of “mental illness””

    In the case of schizophrenia, one could argue that a faulty brain can be the physical cause of the mental illness. This is even supported by all the “natural” ways to try and cure schizophrenia.

    Actually, in psychology, they teach, “Mental events are simultaneously biological events.” Now, that doesn’t mean mental events are CAUSED by biological events, it just means that when a mental event is going on, a biological event is happening at the same time. We also know that doing things to the brain can create changes in mental states.

    Just for the record, I have an autistic younger sister and nobody ever referred to “autistic” as a “psych label” when I was in Scientology. I also knew of two other Scientologists who had autistic children.

    On to a different subject…. a philosophical subject…

    Pat or Louanne, have either of you taken a philosophy class? Are either of you familiar with the different philosophies regarding the mind/body? There’s dualism (view that body and mind are two separate things), material monism (view that everything is physical), idealist monism (view that everything is mental), etc.

    What view do you think best applies to Scientology? Think carefully on this. Dualism would be the obvious choice, but… since the physical universe isn’t something that is actual (notice how I am saying “actual” instead of “real”), what I mean is, if the physical universe is something that can be as-ised, (seeing something for what it really is and therefore causing it to disappear) then it must not be something that is actual, it most only exist in the collective minds of thetans. Therefore, would you consider that Idealist Monism rather than Dualism would be the right view that describes the mind/body view in Scientology?

  34. @Comment by Truth on January 29, 2009 2:06 am

    Have a legitimate question that isn’t a statement of your opinion?

    You’re violating the only rule this forum has.

    Pat

  35. @Comment by Truth on January 28, 2009 10:37 pm

    Now can you make an effort to answer some of my questions, or you just look like another in denial Scientologist.

    If you act respectful, someone might respond in kind.

  36. @Comment by Truth on January 25, 2009 1:03 am

    Come on now, one of you has to have enough confront to answer this. At least deny it as usual.

    Sure. Your posts are boring.

    @Comment by Truth on January 22, 2009 8:03 am

    I have read the books.

    No, you haven’t.

    No where in Hubbards writings does he say what the solution is for the mentally ill.

    You didn’t do the reading so how would you know?

    Ever watch the interview that Anderson Cooper does with your buddy Bruce Wiseman (President of CCHR)?

    Have you seen an actual discussion? One with the intent of exploring a subject rather than suppressing an opposing view?

    www(dot)youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0iOd3KEAY
    www(dot)youtube.com/watch?v=73SRn1gdAdM
    www(dot)youtube.com/watch?v=3lXUOnn5PiQ
    www(dot)youtube.com/watch?v=WJNMBr2zRX8

    You and your role model, Cooper, should get your facts straight.

  37. This mental illness issue really troubles me. Do you know someone with mental illness? I know someone who is bipolar. I knew her before she was diagnosed. I can tell you I knew something was wrong with her. I don’t know her whole story. If she sniffed paint and now this is what happend. I know she drove off and was found walking naked down a road. I am all for trying alternatives to drugs. But this woman needs to be medicated. I see her often. I can see how she behaves. Is she normal with the drugs? No. Is she better than without? Yes. As an outside to this “religion”, I think this is very strange. I think a better name for Scientology would be a philosophy, not religion. This is based on a man who wrote science fiction novels. If you find things that help you great. But I tell you what. NO ONE, would tell me if I can or cannot treat my child based on ones philosophy. Even my own Christian faith. And I wouldn’t hide my child because he/she was acceptable in someone else’s eyes.

  38. @Comment by Truth on January 21, 2009 8:18 pm

    I have a question about this quote from Pat.

    “The bottom line is we don’t deal with schizophrenia or psychosis. Why? Because these diagnoses are not based on any tests. It’s a label used to get people on drugs.”

    Does Scientology think that mental illnesses exist at all?

    Insanity exists and is covered quite extensively in the book
    Dianetics: Modern Science of Mental Health and the Book Science of Survival

    If you mean the Mental illnesses as described by psychiatrists in the DSM IV, no.
    I gave the links to Tiffany a few days ago. You’d understand my point a little more if you look at those.

    What about all the people in mental wards, are they all just acting crazy for attention?
    Has anyone ever been cured of Autism in Scientology or even any mental illness? What’s their name and where do they live?

    Read the books. Will give you the data you’re asking for.

    I don’t see how one can class Autism as a physical problem.
    Really? Then why does the Medical community say it is? Are you a qualified doctor that can throw away current medical conditions?

    It’s clearly a mental issue that creates a look of physical problems. As would (for example) a bad concussion.

    Since when do psychiatrists look at physical problems as the cause of “mental illness”

    They don’t. Just hand someone a drug and say “here now, you’ll forget all about it, and no matter what happens around you, you won’t be bothered anymore”.

    It seems to me that because the medical field doesn’t have a clear answer for some things Scientologists are given a reason to “not believe”.

    We love doctors. It’s psychs and their “make it all go away” and “I think I’ll commit suicide” drugs that we object to. Psychiatry isn’t physical medicine or they’d heal the body first.

    What would Scientology do with all the mentally ill if they were given all access to all mental wards?

    LOL. We wouldn’t. Not our bailiwick. Scientology only deals with the spirit.
    What we can do is open the eyes of the people to the harm these psychotropic drugs are doing.

    I guess you haven’t been watching the news about all the whistleblowing going on regarding psychiatry and big pharma. Eli Lilly just got a $1.4 billion fine for lying about the harm that Zyprexa does to people, then you come here and think we’re wrong for exposing that. There’s many more going on all over the world now. Citizen’s Commission on Human Rights, which is supported by doctors and psychiatrists and psychologists, is vindicated for exposing them and similar connections between the drugging of the world and the kickbacks from Big Pharma.

    Psychiatry makes up a “mental illness” and big pharma makes a drug for it.

    Pat

  39. Ill most def. do that :]
    Thanks for answering my questions.

  40. Comment by Tiffany on January 18, 2009 4:28 pm

    “So if the person is suffering from “schizophrenia” do to a physical illness or a child has “ADD” because of Lyme’s disease, after being on medications and helped by physician, can scientology help with the spiritual damage?”

    Yes, most definitely :)

    I love the New Slant on Life. Tell us how you do on it, Tiffany. I love to hear how people have been able to use the data in their lives.

    Pat

  41. Ah I see. Very interesting website. I was on it for about 3 hours.

    So if the person is suffering from “schizophrenia” do to a physical illness or a child has “ADD” because of Lyme’s disease, after being on medications and helped by physician, can scientology help with the spiritual damage?

    By the way, I watched the introductory film and and stayed for a few hours yesterday, it was really nice. Im taking the New Slant On Life course. :]

    And I have Dianetics, I have recently started reading it.

  42. Comment by Tiffany on January 17, 2009 12:27 pm

    Hi Tiffany,

    That’s exciting that you’re going to do a course!

    The bottom line is we don’t deal with schizophrenia or psychosis. Why? Because these diagnoses are not based on any tests. It’s a label used to get people on drugs.

    Scientology is to help man spiritually, as I’m sure you probably know by now.

    What causes people to appear to have psychosis?

    Read this book (you can buy it online or get it at the library) and it will answer those questions.

    Dianetics: Modern Science of Mental Health

    http://www.cchr.org/#/publications/pamphlets

    Read these pamphlets (pdf forms)
    Pseudoscience: Psychiatry’s False Diagnoses
    Schizophrenia: Psychiatry’s for Profit ‘Disease

    Also, you may want to look at the other pamphlets there

    Pat

  43. Hello,
    I am very interested in Scientology, and plan on taking a course very soon. :D
    I do have a question regarding psychiatry and scientology. I myself suffer from what is called BPD or ‘Borderline Personality Disorder’. I myself disagree with psychiatry and the medications that are carelessly given out to patients. I know what its like to be on and off medications and prefer to be without them, but I am only one small person with one small problem…I wonder how Scientology deals with more serious cases such as schizoprenia or psychosis?

    Thanks!
    -Tiff

  44. “It’s also been uncovered that Kelly had a son with her first husband, who was disabled. Apparently her parents had to sue for custody because she wasn’t getting him the medical attention he needed.”

    Really? Show me the bio.

    Pat

  45. “just like the lies the travoltas have been telling about their GROWN son suffering from Kawasaki Syndrome, which affects toddlers”

    That’s a misconception. The claim being made is not that he still had Kawasaki at age 16, but that he had it as a young kid, and that this could possibly have create complications of the heart and the blood vessels that supply the heart

    Besides, he apparently died of seizure, not of heart attack, so I don’t think his previous Kawasaki condition played a role here. What exactly caused the seizures, I believe, is still unknown at this time, including by the parents and doctors.

  46. I don’t think there is a competent doctor or neurologist who would EVER just take a patient off medication for grand mal seizures and not persue other medications and treatments. It’s all smoke and mirrors, just like the lies the travoltas have been telling about their GROWN son suffering from Kawasaki Syndrome, which affects toddlers.

    It’s also been uncovered that Kelly had a son with her first husband, who was disabled. Apparently her parents had to sue for custody because she wasn’t getting him the medical attention he needed.

  47. Hello Louanne,
    thank you for your answer.

    Kenny

  48. Hi Kenny, that lecture you are describing does NOT deal with Scientology and epilepsy but with auditing procedures. The remark L. Ron Hubbard makes on this tape means that you can get in severe trouble trying to get epileptics off their medication. Church practice in 2008 still is not to interfere in epilepsy medication.

    On you other questions:
    – Expanded Dianetics is defined here: http://www.neweradianetics.org.uk/page04.htm

    It says there: “Some preclears have particularly heavy histories of drug taking. Others have been victimized by injurious psychiatric treatments or have unresolving psychosomatic complaints. People such as these benefit from the specially adapted technology contained in Expanded Dianetics, which consists of more than a dozen different auditing rundowns designed to address and handle such things as:

    * Difficulties the preclear has in his environment
    * Experiences of severe emotional stress
    * Points of his past from which he cannot free his attention
    * Areas of severe personal difficulty stemming from cruel impulses

    Expanded Dianetics auditing resolves the more difficult aberrations found in the reactive mind. Not every preclear requires Expanded Dianetics but it often brings a spectacular improvement in those receiving it.”

    – Yes, Expanded Dianetics is still being trained, so the lecture is part of auditor training.

    – “tech degrade” means to introduce arbitraries in Scientology technology which makes the procedures unworkables. It “degrades” (make less valuable) the “tech” (Scientology procedures).

    – Louanne

  49. Chris, the Church of Scientology does not keep a list of allowed or not allowed therapies etc. The only set-in-stone type concern the Church has is about mind altering drugs. Language training of a 3-year old would be supported by Scientologists including Church staff if it helps the kid – just out of the mores of Scientologists to support what helps and works.

    – Louanne

  50. I have one concern that I haven’t found info on. Forget the mind altering drugs. There is also therapy to teach people with delays. My daughter, for instance was diagnosed with language delay at the age of 3. She went for speech therapy for 5 years to help her “catch up”. If I were a Scientologist, would this treatment be allowed?

  51. Hello, i have some questions.
    I came across a video, which was part of a lecture about “Expanded Dianetics”, where LRH was specifically talking about epilepsy and described a situation, where an auditor would tell the pc to get off the medication prescribed by a doctor to treat the pc’s seizures.
    What is “Expanded Dianetics”?
    Is the lecture about Expanded Dianetics still being sold?
    Is Expanded Dianetics still being practiced in the church?
    What is a “tech degrade”?

    Thanks for your time,
    Kenny

  52. Comment by David on January 7, 2009 1:04 am

    You’re right. There is no statement in any of the scriptures that claims autism doesn’t exist and after 37 years + as a Scientolgist and having done a full study of the basic books and their accompanying lectures, (as well as being a trained auditor), I don’t ever remember seeing Scientology scriptures mention that word. As you say, it’s a physical condition (my earlier post was a typo because I meant to say not mental.) Psychiatrists are trying to make it into a mental illness and use psych drugs for it. That’s not right. Not because I don’t think it doesn’t exist, but because of the “let’s throw drugs at every symptom” think that goes on.)

    My oldest child was a slow starter. He didn’t talk until 3 and then the first words were “Mom, would you tie my shoes?”. Floored me because I had started to go into agreement with a doctor that said he was autistic. He wasn’t. Just didn’t feel like talking. What is labelled as autism may not be autism, and in the case of Jett, if you read up, he was fine until he got really ill at the age of 2. Is that autism or brain damage from the chemicals that his mother says it was? Does that mean that she’s saying autism doesn’t exist or that Jett wasn’t autistic? Do you see how things get twisted by the critics?

    I don’t know if you’ve seen the pictures of Jett with his family, but he’s very much present and not looking inward in every one I’ve seen. People who try to label him are just using this tragedy to diss Scientology. Plain and simple.

    Pat

  53. Hi Louanne,

    May I add my comment on the recent claims that the Church ‘does not recognize autism’? These almost sound like someone’s trying to stir up conflict between Scientologists and the Aspie community.

    As you say, there is no official policy on autism. Nor is there an official policy on left-handedness, homosexuality, or skin pigmentation. These things are not all of comparable magnitude, but they’re all part of the diversity that exists among human beings. None of them are diseases. No-one should feel ‘wrong’ or ashamed for having these traits.

    I don’t think LRH ever used the word ‘autistic’ in his published writings; however, some of the information in his early books on dianetics is relevant to understanding the people to whom this label is applied. He explains how severe incidents in a being’s past can cause them to have misconceptions about their own identity, even to the extent of not viewing the world from their own body’s position. This was my own experience, growing up ‘aspie’ or ‘high functioning autistic’ in the current jargon. It has many consequences in daily living: clumsiness, not knowing where your body is when waking up in the night, unusual sensitivity to light and sound… I only understood this in retrospect, after going clear. There’s a good description of how autistic people feel in a book by Donna Williams (not a scientologist, but very perceptive and articulate) called Nobody Nowhere.

    People on the autistic spectrum aren’t ‘worse off’ or ‘lower in tone’ than the rest of humankind. They have a particular type of case – but everyone has a case of some kind. The essential point is that Standard Tech works on all cases. There is no need to label a preclear as autistic, left-handed or anything else and look for special ways to handle their case. The one bridge is for everyone.

    All this is quite apart from the tragic death of Jett. Unfortunately, medical science couldn’t do more to handle his physical illness.

    Thanks,

    David Cooke (a.k.a. Alael)

  54. Anyone with intelligent questions is quite welcome! On the burning question whether Jett was on meds, here is the newest development: TMZ reports that Jett had a history of grand mal seizures, for which he was treated with a medicine called Depakote. The drug helped, the attorneys said, so Jett took it for several years. But eventually the Depakote stopped working. Amid concerns about serious side effects and physical damage, Jett’s doctors (including neurologists) took him off the drug.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-264-Celebrity-News-Examiner~y2009m1d4-Jett-Travolta-took-seizure-meds-but-they-stopped-working

  55. Thanks, Louanne and Pat.

    This confirms my thought. The media were constantly repeating a claim made by critics with no substantiation or source whatsoever. Knowing both autism and seizures are physical ailments, and seeing them suddenly fall silent (or coming up with their usual cover-up) when asked for their source, I suspected that much.

    Pat: autism is a physical condition. At least this is the official take on it. People with this condition are born into it and there is no cure for it. Note that there is also no medicine for it, so people who blame the Travoltas for not providing him Jett adequate medication because they supposedly ignored his alleged autism condition are talking crap. As usual…

    Thanks again.

  56. Hi Bernie,

    the official Church standpoint is that any physical problems need to be treated medically first and Scientology can support the healing process. Seizures are a medical problem and certainly anti-seizure medication is ok in the Church’s book. I can add some personal experience to this, namely from knowing two epileptics and Scientologists who are taking their medicine regularly. Such medication is absolutely part of some Scientologists life and the Church of Scientology does not interfere in that. In cases of heavy physical sickness however there is a policy which is that no auditing may be given until competent medical treatment has finished (HCO Bulletin 12 March 1969 II “Physically Ill PCs and Pre-OTs”).

    There are no claims whether “autism” exists or not and I don’t think the Church has any official policy about autism. Whatever that condition may be, any physical component (like brain damage, seizures etc) would certainly be treated medically. I can’t speak for the case at hand but I just saw new media about it, which might answer another question: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28497268/

    – Louanne

  57. Comment by Bernie on January 4, 2009 3:28 pm

    Bernie,

    Beyond claims by the critics, there is no basis for the claims that we don’t think autism or seizures exist. Autism, by the way, is mental, in my understanding. I think that you are referring to Jett Travolta here. Think about this. A baby becomes very ill and receives brain damage. Is that now autism? That’s what the critics are saying. They also are asserting that we don’t believe in medication for seizures which is BS. We don’t take mind-altering drugs, because they used by the psychs to mask symptoms, in place of finding the actual cause and helping that. We go to doctors. Where did the data come from that we don’t? Why would someone say that without actual proof? At this point it’s all innuendo and these guys are using the death of a very special child to rag on Scientology with more false data. How cruel is that for John and Kelly and others who knew and loved him?

    Pat

  58. Hi Louanne,

    Thanks so much for giving people here the opportunity to ask the question about Scientology.

    I have seen a lot of assertions yesterday and today that Scientology claims autism does not exist, and that it is against the treatment of autism.

    Considering the fact that autism is not a mental illness but a medical condition, a neurological based condition, it does not seem to fit with with Scientology stands against mental illnesses, therefore I am not sure they really claim what critics claim it says.

    Could you enlighten us on this question? Does Scientology really claims autism does not exist and is it against people being treated for it? Even though it is widely acknowledge that there are no treatment that would cure the condition, there are treatments nevertheless that are said to be able to alleviate it.

    I would be interested to hear what it the viewpoint of Scientology concerning this question. None of the critics I asked were able to point me to anything the CoS said specifically on this point. They are just content to repeat and propagate something for which they apparently cannot provide any source.

    The same goes for seizures. What is Scientology position regarding these, how they are to be treated and, more importantly, whether drugs dealing with seizures are allowed or not.

    Thanks,
    Bernie


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