Ideal 2013 Has Started :)

Church of Scientology Cuts Ribbon on New
Ideal Org for Canada’s Technology Triangle

02-Scientology-Cambridge-Ribbon-PullMore than a thousand Scientologists and their guests from across Canada and the U.S. Great Lakes region gathered on February 9, 2013, to celebrate the opening of the new Church of Scientology of Cambridge, Ontario. Joining Church officials for the dedication ceremony were national and provincial dignitaries.

The Church’s new home is located on a two-acre campus at the gateway to Canada’s Technology Triangle. The expansive Scientology Ideal Organization (Ideal Org) is designed to accommodate the Church’s ever-growing congregation in the tri-cities of Cambridge, Kitchener and Waterloo, and to extend social betterment and humanitarian programs to all communities of southwestern Ontario.

The presence of Mr. David Miscavige, Chairman of the Board Religious Technology Center and ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion, marked the significance of the occasion. In his dedication address, Mr. Miscavige told Cambridge parishioners and staff: “This Church is the incarnation of all Scientology bestows to this world, forged of the very purpose with which L. Ron Hubbard bestowed Scientology itself: to help Man to again find his footing in this materialistic society; to restore to him the goodness, love and decency with which he was created; and to help him fulfill his eternal dream of spiritual freedom. So take all that you now have with this Ideal Org and let no one want of your help, for you now possess unlimited resources to answer every need and fulfill your dreams, your responsibility and your destiny as Scientologists.”

Also in attendance and commemorating the new Church were Member of Parliament, Canadian House of Commons, Ret., Mr. Derek Lee; Canadian Multicultural Council co-founder Mr. Sid Ikeda; and Encounter World Religions Centre founder, Mr. JW Windland.

In welcoming the new Church to Cambridge, Member of Parliament, Canadian House of Commons, Ret., Mr. Derek Lee, said: “I know the church is going to be a major player as a community partner in the development of this whole region. I also understand that 2012 was a really big year for Scientology in its expansion here and internationally and it was the biggest year in your history. So today in Cambridge, Ontario you are lighting the fire for 2013, and I wish you all success in making this the biggest year ever.”

Canadian Multicultural Council co-founder Mr. Sid Ikeda spoke to the Church’s long record of community service in Ontario: “I met you out in the city, doing the good turns for everyone you meet, every day. And that is why I deeply appreciate you and what you bring to the community. The Church of Scientology is doing a good turn for Ontario. L. Ron Hubbard spoke supreme truth when he said ‘a being is as valuable as he can serve others.’ May his legacy and spirit continue to shine all across Canada.”

Founder of the Encounter World Religions Centre, Mr. JW Windland, applauded the Church’s interfaith achievements: “I expect you to wind the fabric of this community even tighter through your continued engagement in interreligious dialogue and education, serving on interfaith councils, and graciously receiving through its doors the community at large as well as the seeker and the curious of all faiths. Your efforts are truly guaranteeing that L. Ron Hubbard’s vision of a world of religious tolerance and peace comes true.”


The new Church provides the tri-cities with an introduction to Dianetics and Scientology, beginning with the Public Information Center. Its displays, containing more than 500 films, present the beliefs and practices of the Scientology religion and the life and legacy of Founder L. Ron Hubbard. The Information Center also offers a detailed overview of the many Church-sponsored humanitarian programs—including a worldwide human rights education initiative; an equally far-reaching drug education, prevention and rehabilitation program; a global network of literacy and learning centers; and the Scientology Volunteer Minister program, now comprising the world’s largest independent relief force. The Center is open morning to night for visitors to tour at their leisure and return as often as they wish.

The Church’s Chapel provides for Scientology congregational gatherings, including Sunday Services, Weddings and Naming Ceremonies—as well as a host of community-wide events open to members of all faiths. The new Church further includes multiple seminar rooms and classrooms, in addition to dozens of rooms for Scientology auditing (spiritual counseling).


The Church of Scientology of Cambridge is the first new Ideal Org to open in 2013, following a parade of Ideal Orgs opened in 2012: Padova, Italy (October 27); Tel Aviv-Jaffa, Israel (August 21); Los Gatos, California (July 28); Buffalo, New York (June 30); Phoenix, Arizona (June 23); Denver, Colorado (June 16); Stevens Creek in San Jose, California (June 9); Orange County, California (June 2); Greater Cincinnati, Ohio (February 25); Sacramento, California (January 28); and Hamburg, Germany (January 21).

Through the coming year, more than a dozen new Ideal Orgs are scheduled to open—in Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Europe, England, South and North America.


Ideal Orgs reflect the fulfillment of Founder L. Ron Hubbard’s vision for the religion. They not only provide the ideal facilities to service Scientologists on their ascent to greater states of spiritual awareness and freedom, they are also designed to serve as a home for the entire community and a meeting ground of cooperative effort to uplift citizens of all denominations.

Other new Ideal Orgs opened in recent years include in Europe, London, Moscow, Brussels, Berlin, Madrid and Rome; Melbourne, Australia; Johannesburg, South Africa; New York, New York; Washington, D.C.; Los Angeles, Inglewood, Pasadena and San Francisco, California; Tampa, Florida; Nashville, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; Dallas, Texas; Mexico City, Mexico; and Quebec City, Canada. For a complete list of new Ideal Orgs of Scientology, visit


The Scientology religion was founded by L. Ron Hubbard. The first Church of Scientology was formed in Los Angeles in 1954 and the religion has expanded to more than 11,000 Churches, Missions and affiliated groups, with millions of members in 167 countries.


  1. Can I get a gage here on what the critics here are trying to accomplish. I spoke with @failroot. nice guy. he supports peoples freedom of religion and what works for them but thinks the church leadership and its structure should be questioned.

    how many agree with that and that is their sole purpose here?

    and who support just demolishing scientology?

    I just think we should get to the point here instead of the mindless arguing.

    I myself support scientology and the church to the fullest as I see not real reason not to. (not inviting you to prove me “wrong” just letting you know my stance)

    lets try to get on level here.

    • Hi, Andy! Other than you and I, this site isn’t very active so I’m not sure if you’ll get the answer that your excellent question deserves. And, before too long our conversation will likely be deleted, sadly.

      You might get a good perspective on your question, you may want to Google the words “freezone scientology”. It’s a large and growing group of practicing scientologists who atill practice their faith but are openly critical of church management. They have exactly the perspective you’re looking for. There are many such groups and I think you’d be interested in what they have to say.

      if I may ask a personal question; many of my friends were given antidepressants by the VA, and had varying levels of success. Did the VA ever try trearing you with antidepressants and, if so, did you take them?

      • I was treated with various psychotopics to include mood stabilizers, antidepressants and anxiety medications tried so many of them.. all were taken for 6 months to a year at a time over a ten year period. I had some “improvements” but it wasn’t real, it didn’t last and I could still be found in a corner crying my mind out time to time. in fact the crying spells were far more intense.

        As time went on I became increasing suicidal. the thoughts became more intense (all while on medications). Then one day I got into a confrontation with a man an broke his door down to get to him. I was arrest and faced up to 10 years of prison time. (while on medications) I was released but ordered to go through a program. at that point I got off the meds and slipped into heavy drug use (like many vets) and then went back on meds. a few months later I attempted suicide, the cops were called and they broke in the door and tazed me as I was cutting my wrist open.

        Once I regained my sanity in the hospital I vowed to never take medications again no matter how bad I felt as I was likely to end up in prison or kill myself.

      • I have a problem here. Im a web designer and I tend to juge a book by its cover. The free zone web sites look all very Mickey mouse I mean a web site doesn’t have to be all flashy but it should at least be taken serious enough to look presentable.

        At this moment in time I am as likely to take the freezoners as serious as I am to take a bible study in a crack house.

      • Good for you on getting off the suicide pills, Andy! :D

      • I’m beyond glad that you found somerhing that works for you, Andy! but plwase tell me- those that had a different experience, where they credit medication with helping them recover from the horrors of war or overcome depression that they couldn’t ahake otherwise; are their perceptions as valid as your own?

      • Andy, do you know what Hubbard called people who whad ab extensive paychiatric history, including heavy drugs, and someone who is an ex-member of a federal agency like the department of the army?

        His word for you, based on your history, is an “Illegal PC”, which means illegal pre-clear. According to his written policy in HCOB 6 Dec 76RB, case supervisors are not allowed to process you. It is policy that they cannot and must not “handle” you like someone who has not had those experiences. Ironic since Hubbard died with psych drugs in his system, no?

        Also, according to Flag Order 2712, dated 28 jan 1971, they will not allow you to join the sea org. No loss there, but you might not have known what you were excluded from.

        Just thought you should know.

    • Personally, I would like to see scientology reformed or improved, not destroyed. I know many scientologists, and I like each one. And many of them feel the same way. Some of them would like to be able to practice independently, but they’re not allowed to. Isn’t that odd? They want to study Hubbard’s words and do the things that he showed them how to do (through his writings), but they’re not allowed to. Those that try are threatened with lawsuits or called names, and their friends turn their backs on them.

      What other church doesn’t allow people to call themselves a believer, even if they’re not in the “official” church? How many Catholics have been sued for starting their own church? How many Christians have been called names because they want to read the bible on their own and follow their own path?

      I have nothing against scientologists, and want to see each one prosper. However, I have concerns with the management of the church and THAT’S what I criticize. I will never attack a scientologist or their beliefs, merely point out things that I think don’t make sense or should be explored. Here’s an example- click on my username; you can see examples of how the official scientology outlets (including this one) spread false information in the form of doctored images. This isn’t the first time, either- this happened at an IAS event in 1999, and it was much more obvious then. You can see in my link the actual photographs that show their numbers to be false. Shouldn’t we criticize the practice of LYING to people?

      • “Shouldn’t we criticize the practice of LYING to people?”

        Absolutely. So, can you please stop forwarding lies?

        – L

      • Afraid I can’t stop something I never started, Louanne. I have studies, surveys and censuses to back up my conclusion, plus I happen to travel a lot and happen to see how many orgs across the country are consistently empty.

        Upon what do you base YOUR conclusion? Do you have anything more than what you’re told from management?

        Scientology is shrinking, and only the scientology resources claim otherwise. Only by acknowledging the fact can you hope to reverse it.

      • Bah, would you stop circle-jerking, please? It’s disgusting.

        I believe what I see. I living in California I can tell from personal observation for the last 10 years: Scientology membership is growing, not only the number of churches but also the number of the people in it.

        – L

      • That’s odd, because I was just in Philadelphia. The org there was empty all week.

        So all you can claim (and we’ll assume you’re correct, for argument’s sake) is that the area NEAR YOU is “growing”. You can’t personally attest to anything else. So where do you get your belief that scientology as a whole is growing? You choose to ignore every study and survey that’s shows otherwise, so what do you base your conclusion on?

  2. @failroot
    You still aren’t expressing an opinion on this critic obvious lie on scientology in canada.. which is afterall what your first post is answering ME on…
    Is it safe to say that you being a critic of scientology don’t read well?
    Consider taking a course called the “basic study manual” to help you…

    • For some reason, my reply was copied elsewhere. Please find my (edited) comment below:

      what lie are you referring to? if youre talking about the reference to the ontario org, his statement was factual- it is boarded up, is it not? read what he wrote again and you would see.
      but he seems to have drawn an inference that is incorrect; the org is not permanantly closed. He didnt say anything beyond the point that it was boarded up; you and I assume that he meant something, but we don’t know for sure. So for you to call it a lie is inaccurate.
      your turn, how do you feel about the false statements by pat and louanne?

      • As I also said, the old org may be boarded up but the Church moved so IT is not boarded up. Now you’re playing with semantics. What he said WAS a lie. The org was not boarded up. Just a building that is not the org is boarded up. It was intentionally misleading propaganda which you are defending making you guilty of lying by association.

      • My post, again, disappeared. Odd.

        Let’s discuss the difference between denotative and connotative meanings. The denotative meaning is very literal; in this case, the building that housed the church is boarded up, perhaps for renovation (as from the official release). This may be true, or it might not reopen. But what Ulysses said is technically factual (ie, not a lie). Now, there’s a certain connotative meaning behind the phrase “boarded up”, isn’t there? It often implies closed forever. Is that what Ulysses meant? Maybe; likely even. But he hasn’t addressed that, so we’re all operating on assumptions and guesses. But let’s imagine that he did mean that it’s closed forever. Did he intend to deceive? Maybe- if so, that’s a lie. Was he incorrect? Maybe- if so, that’s not a lie. You don’t know which it is, do you? Instead, you’ve reached a conclusion based on insufficient information and stated something as fact, even though you can’t know for sure. Do you do that a lot?

        I wonder if you hold yourself to the same standard that you hold others? You call Ulysses a liar for his statement on the Ontario org… what are you, then, for your non-factual statements that scientology was “pulled out” of the Aris 2008 report?

      • As I said before FAIL, the building that was boarded up was not the org. The org itself had moved. So it WAS a lie to say the org was boarded up which is what he said.

      • pat; kindly provide evidence of intent to deceive, without which it is not a lie. As I doubt you have that information, it appears you’re drawing a conclusion with insufficient evidence. frankly, it seems to be a difference in phrasing. But you’re free to focus on what you want. In the meantime, I suggest you direct your questions to the person who made the comment.

  3. (Regarding the other post, ““Stop vilifying Scientology” Well said!”)

    According to the Scientology News Australia webpage, Vicki Dunstan is the President of Scientology. Is she also the head of Public Affairs like she claims in the article? My; they certainly must be hard up for volunteers if the president needs to pull double-duty as the head of public affairs! I’d imagine that those would be full time jobs in and of themselves if there weren’t so few scientologists in australia. Now those Jedi- they’d certainly need to have the positions seperate- if memory serves, they outnumber scientologists 30 to 1.

    Is this the same Vicki Dunstan whose daughter called scientology a “toxic church”?

  4. Regarding the other post, ““Stop vilifying Scientology” Well said!”

    According to the Scientology News Australia webpage, Vicki Dunstan is the President of Scientology. Is she also the head of Public Affairs like she claims in the article? My; they certainly must be hard up for volunteers if the president needs to pull double-duty as the head of public affairs! I’d imagine that those would be full time jobs in and of themselves if there weren’t so few scientologists in australia. Now those Jedi- they’d certainly need to have the positions seperate- if memory serves, they outnumber scientologists 30 to 1.

    Is this the same Vicki Dunstan whose daughter called scientology a “toxic church”?

    • Yes, there are thirty times more jedi in Australia than scientologists. The last census (in which they DO ask the “religion” question) found 65,000 jedi and only a couple thousand scientologists.
      There’s also more witches in Australia than scientologists- over 8,000 of them.

  5. Buildings sure seem important to Scientology… The number of buildings that they own are all over their websites and press releases, and even this blog. With all the bragging about buildings, it makes me remember what LRH once said:

    “We own a tremendous amount of property. We own a tremendous amount of material, and so forth. And it keeps growing. But that’s not important. When buildings get important to us, for God’s sake, some of you born revolutionists, will you please blow up central headquarters. If someone had put some HE (high explosives) under the Vatican long ago, Catholicism might still be going. Don’t get interested in real estate. Don’t get interested in the masses of buildings, because that’s not important.”
    –L. Ron Hubbard
    31 December 1960 lecture, The Genus of Dianetics and Scientology.

  6. Also: “Knowing that the margin of error was huge (his idea) for all religions”

    This is also incorrect. The margin of error is quite reasonable for large religions. Only those that are small (and lumped into the “new and other” category) had a high margin of error. The margin of error itself is further evidence of the small number of self-professed scientologists. If you don’t believe me, ask the study’s authors.

  7. You can see all of the Ideal Org videos on the new YouTube Channel.

    • In Scientology News selection

    • LOL, you know what the funniest thing about those Idle Org Tour videos? It’s that there’s NO PEOPLE in them! And it’s no wonder why; people are avoiding Scientology like they avoid syphilis XD

      • They are made before the parish moves in.

      • It should have been obvious, that these were pre-move in, since it was that way in all the videos.

    • PS, why do you keep saying you have “millions” of members when the ARIS found only 25,000 in the US and the Australian Census found less than 2300?

      • Because the ARIS study was a fake. The year after they had to take it out of their reports because it was unscientific and unreliable. I am aware that the usual suckers don’t feel disturb by false information and still keep repeating it.

      • Here’s the link for you on that. Louanne is right, your cronies continue to perpetuate a lie and suckered you in, or you’re part of the disinformation campaign.

      • There are approximately 15 million Jews in the world; so if there “millions” of Scientologists as according to you, there should be at least 2 Scientologists for every 15 Jews. Therefore, there should be AT LEAST 2 Scientology orgs for every 15 Jewish synagogues (“at least” because I know Scientology is more about 1-on-1 spiritual counselling rather than big Congregational sermons and such).

        Just from a cursory glance at Google Maps, there are maybe 50-60 synagogues within 100 miles of me, so therefore according to you, there should be 8 or so Scientology orgs.

        There is 1 (O-N-E) Scientology center within 100 miles of me. It’s not even an “org;” it’s a mission, and it recently shrunk from a 2 story building to a 1 story building.

        Your own church’s website pulls up only a couple of dozen locations around the world. Many of these places are dead.

        You do NOT have millions of members; do NOT accuse me of spreading disinformation.

      • Actually, Ulysses, a quick search of this site shows that Pat, at least, claimed 10 Million members as of 2007 (“So much happening!”, posted originally by Louanne. Comment by Pat on March 7, 2011 12:43 am). As I think they’re claiming “exponential growth”, we should expect to see a nearly one for one match of jews and scientologists. Like you, I see a lot more synagogues than scientology centers. Interestingly, fairly recently I traveled past both a synagogue and a scientology org. The synagogue was quite busy and active while the org was staffed by a desperate looking man and a frumpy woman. I kept walking, like everybody else.

        But, anyways, assuming NO growth since the last numbers, we should see 1 scientology org for every 3 synagogues, which is far from reality. For that matter, it should be common to meet scientologists in social settings or away from orgs, nearly as common as meeting jews. It is not. Heck, it should be common to see scientologists represented in politics, the military and science, at least as third as many as jews. It is not. As an interesting comparison, 187 jews have been awarded the nobel prize. Do you know how many scientologists have been awarded the nobel prize? If you guessed 62, you’re wrong- zero. none. Despite their “increased IQ”, not a single scientologist was earned the nobel prize.

  8. Here’s a list of California Orgs, Michael

    Church of Scientology of Inglewood

    South Los Angeles
    Church of Scientolgy Community Center

    Los Angeles
    Church of Scientology of Los Angeles

    Los Gatos
    Church of Scientology of Los Gatos

    Orange County
    Church of Scientology of Orange County

    Church of Scientology of Pasadena

    Church of Scientology of Sacramento

    San Francisco
    Church of Scientology of San Francisco

    San Jose
    Church of Scientology Stevens Creek of San Jose

    Church of Scientology of the Valley

    Mountain View
    Church of Scientology of Mountain View

    San Diego
    Church of Scientology of San Diego

    Santa Barbara
    Church of Scientology of Santa Barbara

    Los Angeles
    Scientology Celebrity Centre International

    Los Angeles
    Church of Scientology Advanced Organization of Los Angeles

    Los Angeles
    Church of Scientology American Saint Hill Organization

    The links for these are at:

  9. How wonderful! I thought Scientology in Canada was dead after Narconon Trois Rivieres in Quebec was shut down and the Toronto Org was boarded up!

    Check it out, there’s great video of the opening online as well!

    • Toronto org is at 77 Peter Street while the other is renovated.

      Your video isn’t about the opening at all. Just a protest.

    • What? A anti-scio lying? NO! Say it isn’t so! Friend just visit the temporary location in toronto… says its rather nice there too!

  10. That’s is great. Mr misgaviage is such a hero and I only wish a church was dedicated in the inland empire California. I would so be there Scientology is such an awsome religion And in the future definitely something I want to be a part of :-)

  11. pat,

    this is a little bit awkward, but have you actually READ the 2008 ARIS report that your link discusses? (speaking of which, I suppose that is part of what makes scientology unique- no other church seems to use parishoner funds to launch new websites to counter its many accusations, but that’s neither here nor there)

    For one, to say that Dr. Kosmin “distanced”
    himself from any estimates is misleading- he correctly pointed out that there is a margin of error. that’s responsible, not distancing. And to say that he removed references to scientology from the study is outright false- it’s still in there along woth all the other religious froups that weren’t significant enough to warrant their own category. it even ecplains that in the study itself, that certain groupings were merged AT THE REQUEST OF REPONDENTS.

    So all that you can show is that the co-author noted a potential margin for error. and…?

    louanne- please clarify how the results were “faked”.

    Ulysses- another consideration; did you know there are no scientology military chaplains? if there were actually millions of Scientologists, wouldn’t you expect there to be at least one?

  12. drat, linking is behaving strangely on my phone. my last post was in reply to pat’s link regarding membership numbers.

  13. correction to my first point. 2008 was the most recent aris survey, at least that I can find. so to say scientology was not included in the next survey is misleading.

  14. Comment by Pat on March 20, 2013 8:20 pm
    The word “next” wasn’t used by me or Louanne

    Didn’t say it was- it was in the link you provided.

    And I’m looking at the study right now- Scientology is still in there, lumped in with all the other groups that weren’t statistically significant enough for their own heading.

    Despite your ad hom attacks, my information is accurate. And if you really did view the still- available aris report, you would see Scientology sill in there. Finally, the co-author never admitted the suy was faked- he merely said there was a margin of error. You could expect that for any small group. But if you believe that margin accounts for millions of people, then you’re dreaming.

    Please, show me the aris report that has Scientology removed. While you’re at it, show me where Kosmin used the word “faked”.

  15. It’s funny, I just got an email reply from Dr. Kosmin, when I asked for his thoughts. He said:

    “The issue is not Scientology but statistics. All our figures are estimates. Sample surveys have a range of error – any total has a plus-minus range. For ARIS even though it has 54k respondents extrapolation to the US adult population of 228M means a wide range. So for small religious groups – under 100k where there is greater inaccuracy – we’re reluctant to report numbers officially though I have given them out privately with the above caveat.

    For Scientologists the figure is 25K +/_ c.300k. Since they are reluctant to report there may be a minus number of Scientologists they use the plus figure only. However, even this total is nowhere near the millions they claim.

    Hope this helps,

    Barry A. Kosmin, Ph.D.
    Research Professor, Public Policy & Law Program
    Director, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society & Culture

    Trinity College
    300 Summit Street
    Hartford, CT 06106”

    His number’s in there- please feel free to call him if you’d like. Or send him an email- his address is on the university’s site. [The author of this post asked to remove the phone number.- L]
    So, far from “distancing” himself from the results and saying that anything at all was “faked”, the doctor merely acknowledges the statistical variances that occur when trying to represent very small groups. By his findings, scientology has AT MOST 325,000 members in the US, and that’s at the very highest end of the potential margin of error- it could be much lower.

    So… Dr. Kosmin has NOT distanced himself from the study
    The study was NOT faked
    Scientology was NOT removed from any ARIS report “the year after”

    Stop spreading false information. Stop lying.

  16. “The word “next” wasn’t used by me or Louanne.”

    I’m sorry, I missed it- louanne said, “the year after,” which is not true.

    I also retract the statement that you were lying- I think you genuinely believed what you said. the question is, what will you do with the accurate information you now have?

  17. Look at the study. All reference to Scientology has been removed, with admission of the person doing the study that the results originally reported were erroneous. Not my statement, but his. So, repeating what the owner of the study removed is false data.

    Louanne didn’t say the results were faked. She said the study was, by the owner’s own admission. Knowing that the margin of error was huge (his idea) for all religions, he still published it. He later removed any reference to Scientology, and those, such as Ulysses still repeating the old data, are spreading false data about a study that’s been amended.

    No amount of logic is gonna make that data true. But if you want to go on believing it, that’s your business. Just don’t expect that those who really look at all the data, and correctly evaluate it, are going to believe you. You have no credibility here, since your objective is to destroy a religion.

  18. Failroot: “another consideration; did you know there are no scientology military chaplains? if there were actually millions of Scientologists, wouldn’t you expect there to be at least one?”

    Failroot, how can you expect Scientologists to bother with such petty tasks such as serving their country or fighting terrorism? They have WAY more important tasks at hand, such as “Clearing the Planet” and fighting the “suppressives” and “psychs!” XD

  19. Repeating your propaganda does not help you, “failroot” (nomen est omen, eh?)

    Dr. Kosmin realized that it is inappropriate to include nonsense figures in his study and removed them. ARIS is by no means a reliable source for minority religion figures.

    I would be interested to find out how they determined the number of Quakers using a phone survey.

    – L

  20. The word “next” wasn’t used by me or Louanne.

  21. Ok, the truth is, the Scientology reference was removed from the study because it is complete bullshit.


  22. louanne,

    please edit out the doctor’s phone number.


  23. Yawn. Not worth the time to play your game.

  24. I see no difference. The “study” asked 54,000 people what their religion was. The badly skewed numbers are based on that. To me that’s false data. You can believe it all you want. I won’t change my mind that the false data relayed is significant. For example, where were the 54,000 people? Any from EU, UK, Australia or any of the 166 countries where we have a Church, Mission or group?

    As I said, inaccurate and unreliable and estimates only based on a small sampling. These “studies” are not studies. The census was mentioned. The US doesn’t ask for religion and that’s where a majority of Scientologists are.

    Get over it.

  25. Ad hom much?

    The source reference says: “Consequently, he removed any reference to Scientology from his study.” And that is completely true.

    – L

  26. “please edit out the doctor’s phone number.”



  27. Louanne,

    Please explain to me how pointing out that Pat had ample time to post inaccurate information, but no time to acknowledge accurate information, is “against the person”, or “ad hom”.

    Also, how can you say that ANY reference to scientology has been removed from the study, when you can go to the aris website right now and view the study and see that scientology is still in there? Your source reference, which is a scientology-owned website, is not accurate.

  28. “Ok, the truth is, the Scientology reference was removed from the study because it is complete bullshit. ”

    Again; please explain why the reference is still in the study. Have you actually viewed it yourself? Also, the co-author disagrees with you. He only notes that the numbers are so small that it’s hard to pin down an actual number. I think that was also made clear in my post about how Occam’s razor supports this claim- which you removed.

  29. You can “believe” anything you want. Having “faith in” something is enslaving though. It’s better to have actual statistics than estimates, and your whole premise is based on estimates from a small sampling. Not scientific at all. Just go on “believing”.

  30. “Repeating your propaganda does not help you, “failroot” (nomen est omen, eh?)”

    How are verifiable facts “propaganda”? I took the time to ask the author of the survey his thoughts and to actually read the survey- neither of which you appear to have done. Your site claims that it seeks “answers from independent sources, not only Church of Scientology owned sites or anti-Scientology hate sites”; odd that you can only site a scientology-owned site to counter my “propaganda”. Please tell me, how do you explain the fact that scientology is STILL in the report, despite your site’s claims to the contrary?
    “nomen est omen, eh?”- it appears so; but don’t worry, you’ll succeed sooner or later. I can’t be the root of ALL of your factual failures! :)

    “Dr. Kosmin realized that it is inappropriate to include nonsense figures in his study and removed them. ARIS is by no means a reliable source for minority religion figures.”

    Strange- he didn’t mention that. Nor did he, you know, actually remove them. Have you actually READ the survey? Also, as he pointed out, it’s very difficult to counter the statistical variance for such a small group. That’s why the math gives a very generous margin for error. All other very small groups have the same challenge.

    “I would be interested to find out how they determined the number of Quakers using a phone survey.”

    Probably by calling them. Quakers are use phones and electricity. They have many websites and an IRC channel.

  31. ^ the word “are” is a stray. Please ignore.

  32. Give me the link you’re basing your data on, please.

  33. yes, a small sampling has trouble with a very small group. The author addressed that.

    Please, where do you get YOUR information? You don’t trust samples or official estimates- where do you get your numbers? Is it that you simply believe what your told? Or have you questioned it, like I have? I questioned the author of the study- what have you done?

  34. you mean the aris study? I thought you’ve read it?

  35. Who claimed that the census DID ask for religion? They don’t- they only link to the aris study. Did you know that? The US census webpage- the gov address- links to the aris study for religous demographics. Seems reliable enough for the census folks.

    Get over what? Facts? That’s not as easy for me as it seems to be for you. Please, where do you get YOUR information regarding the number of scientologists? It’s a pity that Louanne deleted my occam’s razor post- I would have been interested in your thoughts on that.

  36. “For example, where were the 54,000 people? Any from EU, UK, Australia or any of the 166 countries where we have a Church, Mission or group?”

    Yes, Pat. I’m very sure that the AMERICAN Religious Identification Survey asked people from outside of the US.

    Funny thing, mentioning australia. Did you know that the Australian census (they DO ask the religious question in their census) found more jedi than scientologists? It’s been a while since the UK did a census, but in 2001 they found less than 2000.

    Funny, huh?

  37. Regarding scientology in the ARIS survey:

    I think you’re mixing up the ARIS study with the PEW religous life survey, which is yet another survey that didn’t find vary many scientologists. It’s easy to get them confused, since both concluded that there aren’t very many scientologists in the US.

  38. oops, double post, sorry.

  39. That seems like an easy mistake to make. Yeah, the Pew survey took scientology out of its results altogether after failing to find any in their random sample.

    Of course, they had a much smaller sample, which makes it even harder to find members of such a small group. If there were millions they would have likely found a few, but they didn’t. The aris survey uses a much larger sample size, which is why the US census endorses it by linking to it from its website.

    Every survey, every census, ever logical consideration suggests a small number of scientologists in the world. The only information that suggests otherwise is from scientology itself, and of course we can’t actually view that information- we just have to trust them…

  40. quite a broad brush, HaHaHa.

    do you have an opinion on pat and louanne’s factual errors?

  41. Do you have an opinion on such a lie done by the critic?
    i have one.. .he is so desparate to find something wrong that he makes stuff up! the church has been so successful lately, that, that is the lengths critics are going to!

  42. @HaHaHa

    I see. And then what does it meant that pat and louanne made stuff up? If you read the posts you can see that.

  43. re: Comment by faiIroot on March 28, 2013 9:31 pm

    I’m sorry, I meant, “what does it mean.”

    My mistake.

  44. @failroot…
    that is not an opinion of the critic’s lie… do you have one?

  45. If can’t figure out that i’ve figure out what your trying to do…
    See a doctor…

  46. In every case you mention there are no actual statistics, so it’s all speculation and guesswork. “Suggests” and “seems” and “might” are guesses and innuendo. Something you have a pattern doing.

    Where are the actual stats that make any ARIS study factual versus an authoritarian attempt to force false data down someone’s throat. I’m sure not buying it.

  47. @ HaHa

    I have no idea what you’re trying to say, but you seem to lack the ability to answer simple questions. would it be accurate to assume that you’re a scientologist and that english is not your primary language?


    you claim that the data (specifically the aris survey, but I assume you hold the pew survey and the australian census in the same regard) is false, which is an absolute claim that you could only make if you had credible conflicting information. Upon what do you base your position that there millions of scientologists? I don’t recall you answering that.

  48. @ haha

    what lie are you referring to? if youre talking about the reference to the ontario org, his statement was factual- it is boarded up, is it not? read what we wrote again and you would see.

    but he drew an inference that is incorrect; the org is not permanantly closed. he didnt say anything beyond the point that it was boarded up; you and I assume that he meant something, bit we don’t know for sure.

    your turn, how do you feel about the false statements by pat and louanne?

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