Again: US Government slaps France and Germany for discrimination of Scientologymembers

Just out: International Religious Freedom report 2009

France: “Discrimination against Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, and other groups considered dangerous sects or cults remained a concern and may have contributed to acts of vandalism against these groups. Some groups expressed concern that MIVILUDES [government] publications contributed to public mistrust of minority religions.”

Germany: “…there continue to be concerns about societal and governmental (federal and state) treatment of certain religious minorities, notably Scientologists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Muslims.”

Development countries, what should I say…

– Louanne

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16 Comments

  1. I, myself, would go so far as to say that sometimes the concerns about scientology are warranted.
    Would it have been discrimination to oppose Jim Jones? Or the cult in Japan that gassed the subway? How about the Islamic Radicals that are in Al Queda?
    Anyways, this is another case of entire Countries NOT wanting scientology in their borders- they saw what happened to the US. And, like Russia, they will fight it tooth and nail until the scientology lawsuits are successful.

  2. That’s what’s funny about this: There have been hundreds of quotes from court records, government findings, official statements, etc, about the dangers of scientology. A few of them are above. Of course, scientology ignores them, coming up with various excuses or diversions. But once something comes out that they can use to their benefit, suddenly it’s the gospel truth!
    Talk about your double standards.

  3. Must agree with above. The state department report was written BEFORE this case came to light. So even if one country can make such an opinion over the activities of another, why only listen to the US? Why not the countless other countries (the US is one) that fight to keep scientology OUT of their borders? Surely, you’ve seen the many quotes by US judges and other legal entities? I would think that the opinion that the government has of scientology within their own borders says much more than one single government agency.

    Such as:

    “When a person is subjected to coercive persuasion [as in Scientology] without his knowledge or consent …[he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide.” (California Supreme Court, United States v. Lee [455 U.S. 252,257,258 (1982)*/)

    “The invidiousness of the alleged conspiracy is best reflected in the fact that plaintiff was sued 21 times over the course of a 17- month period in jurisdictions ranging from New York to California…. we hold that plaintiff has sufficiently alleged the elements of the tort of malicious prosecution and, for purposes of this case, the tort of civil conspiracy to commit malicious prosecution.” (Chief Justice Freeman, Illinois Supreme Court, 9/18/97, No. 80868; Cult Awareness Network v. Church of Scientology, et. al.)

    “Mr. Hubbard showed up for the divorce proceedings in Port Orchard, Wash.; he had another woman with him that he was supposed to have married during 1946.” … “Mrs. Ochs produced two old newspaper article which gave an account of the divorce proceedings of the second wife. The articles in ‘The Mirror’ Los Angeles, Calif. paper dated April 23. 1951 page 12, and the ‘Los Angeles Times’ April 24, 1951 related how Mrs. Sarah Northrup Hubbard, from a Pasadena family, was kidnapped, had her child (Alexis Valery – 13 month old daughter) taken from her by Hubbard and was asking for a divorce.” (FBI report of interview with Margaret Ochs (1st wife of L. Ron Hubbard), Inspector W. Beale Grove, Philadelphia District, 2/20/63; Official documents prove that L. Ron Hubbard was in fact guilty of bigamy)

    “In reality the church is a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner. […] Eleven top Scientologists, including Hubbard’s wife, were sent to prison in the early 1980s for infiltrating, burglarizing and wiretapping more than 100 private and government agencies in attempts to block their investigations. […]Scientology has brought hundreds of suits against its perceived enemies and today pays an estimated $20 million annually to more than 100 lawyers.” … “One legal goal of Scientology is to bankrupt the opposition or bury it under paper. The church has 71 active lawsuits against the IRS alone. […]’In my opinion the church has one of the most effective intelligence operations in the U.S., rivaling even that of the FBI,’ (Ted Gunderson, a former head of the FBI’s Los Angeles office.)

  4. Pat,

    he’s right- research the “appeal to authority” concept. It’s not to say that certain attitudes do not impact French decisions, and that’s not what bigdaddy is saying. What he is saying is that the opinion of the US state department cannot change what French scientologists do or do not do.

    Recall that many countries, their courts and governments have spoken out against scientology in very critical terms, and that doesn’t change what scientology does in the US, does it? Or do you consider the opinions of France, Britain, Russia, etc, less valid than the US?

    Bottom line, the US state dept opinion does not address the facts of this particular case.

  5. @Comment by bigdaddy on November 13, 2009 8:09 am

    “the trial is not the subject of the article, pat :)

    iit stands as correct that the trial and the french trial are not necessarily related.”

    You mean that what the State Department wrote and the French trial are not related? Just trying to clarify here.

    Pat

  6. the trial is not the subject of the article, pat :)

    iit stands as correct that the trial and the french trial are not necessarily related.

  7. @ Comment by scientologytruths on November 12, 2009 11:43 pm

    “Louanne,
    Think about what he’s asking for a second. The facts of the case, in this scenario, are not CHANGED by the report itself. Would you agree with that, at least?”

    Please stop trying to make a statement out of this. Her article was about what the US State Department wrote. Do you have a question (versus a statement) regarding the “facts” of the trial?

    Pat

  8. Louanne,
    Think about what he’s asking for a second. The facts of the case, in this scenario, are not CHANGED by the report itself. Would you agree with that, at least?

  9. No, certainly not. However, I think this scenario is too general. The determinations of the US government towards a “cult” would be different, too, if criminal acts – such as murder – of the hypothetical cult are found to be inherent to their normal and organized activity. Which normally is not the case for groups listed in US State Department reports.

    – L

  10. well, before you shatter my supression, consider the following hypothetical situation:

    if there was a hypothetical cult in france, and they murdered someone, would the determinations of the us government (the authority to which you appeal) change that fact?

  11. What are you talking about?

    Here is the post:

    Just out: International Religious Freedom report 2009

    France: “Discrimination against Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, and other groups considered dangerous sects or cults remained a concern and may have contributed to acts of vandalism against these groups. Some groups expressed concern that MIVILUDES [government] publications contributed to public mistrust of minority religions.”

    Germany: “…there continue to be concerns about societal and governmental (federal and state) treatment of certain religious minorities, notably Scientologists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Muslims.”

    Development countries, what should I say…

    Aside from the first two words and the last five these two statements are quoted from the International Religious Freedom report that was published by the US government.

    – L

  12. did you look up the term first? if you had, you would see that you’re using a common logical flaw.

  13. Come one, I haven’t said anything like this.

    – L

  14. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that you’re using the established logical fallacy called “appeal to authority”. Google it, you’ll see.
    Anyways- the posting is unrelated to the case. Essentially, you’re asking people to ignore the charges based on a report about the religious climate- but it ignores the specifics of this particular case.

  15. “Comment by mark tomles on October 27, 2009 9:08 pm”

    Mark, you are not quite clear. My post reports about Germany and France being criticized in the latest International Religious Freedom Report, published by the US State Department.

    – L

  16. This is what you call an “appeal to authority”, and does not necessarily address the issues at hand. What of the accusations? Do you find any validity in the accusations of fraud, and the conviction for the same?


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