News about Anonymous

I stumbled across an article about Anonymous, allegedly “published by the Church of Scientology” (according a PR spin site, so take this with a grain of salt). The article is quite interesting as it has much more facts to present than the usual anti-Scientology nonsense on the web. Somebody did quite some homework. Check it out: “When crime has no face”

– Louanne

PS: Update 14 July 2009, they have added a booklet (I saved it here: Anonymous: When Crime Has No Face).

55 Comments

  1. Pat,

    The quote, as quoted above in the above quote, was “Their dens of cyberbulling, racism and anti religious hate need to be shut down and there is no organization better able to handle this problem then Scientology. It is long past time that the ability for these people to spew hate from behind masks and fake names comes to an end, and we will ensure that day will come soon.”

    Unlike our previous R2-45 conversation, we are fortunate enough to be able to ask the source! :)

    Notice that this is not referring to copyright or trademarks (they are two different things), this is a judgment as to what is appropriate to have on the internet. Now, I know it can be thorny issue, about what can be “allowed” on the internet, and who will control content.
    My question is do many scientologists feel that they are, as in the above quote, the best organization to make this determination.

  2. Ms. Pat,
    With all due respect, I don’t believe that I will get an answer from you. I’ve read your previous answers, and would like to predict that I will not get a straight answer from you. I mean do disrespect, but I must note that you were not able to answer a direct question without trying to turn it around. So, if I may, I will experiment with this. I will answer your questions, but I can be positive tat you will attempt to avoid answering it directly. So, I will humor you, and will happily answer your question.

    “You go first, Mr. Smith”:
    Okay, if you would like. I can only assume that you will go next.
    I am concerned about a reputation that may imply that I could be placed in some sort of danger or other inconvenience if I use my real name. So, as a precaution, I am choosing to remain anonymous. I would imagine, seeing your previous answers, that you will attempt to discredit my statement here, and will not explain why it is that you hide behind a “mysterious name” and hide behind the internet.

    Pat,
    Thank you for addressing the second question, but I was addressing Louanne regarding a quote that she had said. With much respect, I do not believe that you are in a position to speak to her beliefs, statements and personal thoughts. Note that trademark was not mentioned in her quote.

    With best regards,
    Mr. Smith

  3. @Comment by Mr. Smith on July 24, 2009 11:48 pm
    “May I please know how it is that this will be ensured? Do many scientologists believe that the internet must be censored?”

    That first question has already been answered in the posts about anonymous.

    Read those too.

    The second question is another spin. We get something removed due to a Trademark violation and anonymous couldn’t wait to use this as an excuse to attack. Just spin.

    Show me where Scientology censurs the internet. (And I seriously mean, “the internet” which is the context you used). Intentionally twisting our standing up for our rights, into a perceived abuse is not new. Give me something new. This is old news.

    Pat

  4. You go first, Mr. Smith

    Pat

  5. Louanne and Pat,
    I would like to please enquire as to why neither of you have revealed your real, full name and released photographs of yourselves. Is there a reason why you choose to remain anonymous while dealing with Scientology issues?

  6. Louanne, I would like to please request that you clarify what it is that you had meant when you said the following on May 12, 2009?

    But the work will not be done after these kids go home. We have to go after the root of the problem. Their dens of cyberbulling, racism and anti religious hate need to be shut down and there is no organization better able to handle this problem then Scientology. It is long past time that the ability for these people to spew hate from behind masks and fake names comes to an end, and we will ensure that day will come soon.

    Posted by: Louanne Lee | May 12, 2009 at 04:43 PM

    May I please know how it is that this will be ensured? Do many scientologists believe that the internet must be censored?

  7. Pat, once again, I do understand what he is saying, and will assist.

    “Look up the word holistic*, and you will see what is meant. Research can be horrible , like all medical research. You are nitpicking a small point, but you miss the total point. You are only enturbulating.
    Do you have problems with medical advancement because of early research? Read the history of life-saving surgery. Sorry, but it is no better.
    Please do not derail productive progress.”

    In other words, out of the entire conversation, you found a point of contention, and discarded the entire point of the conversation. What’s more, although the “treatement” was somewhat primitive, it certainly did consider the inter-relation between multiple components.
    To put it into context, please note that every of the healing professions have had rough starts. For instance, how many people bled to death in order to try to cure physical ailments?
    Furthermore, he seems to be likening you to a “troll”, which only popped up to derail the conversation and, possibly, elicit a particular response. It does not address the issue being discussed.
    Please let me know if you need further assistance or explanation, and would be very eager to hear any input you have on the concepts being discussed.

    *defined: “emphasizing the organic or functional relation between parts and the whole.” “The approach of taking into consideration the whole body and environment when offering treatment”

  8. I’m sorry, but I didn’t understand what you said.

    Pat

  9. pat,
    let da grownups talk :)
    look up wrd holistic and u will see what is meant. research can be horrible, like all med resesrch. u nitpick small point, bt miss total point. u r only entutbulating.
    do u have problems wit medical advancement bcause of early research? read history of life svng surgery. sorry, but is no better.
    pl do not derial productive progress.

  10. Regarding Wundt, my history is a little bit shaky, but his theories have largely been superseded by newer theories made possible by scientific advancement (like physical medicine, greater technology results in greater knowing), so I wouldn’t say that he’s “worshipped”, but I would say that some of his philosophies, particularly the use of a holistic approach to mental health, are still considered relevant today.

    Holistic? That’s a word I would NOT use for Wilhelm Wundt. Where do you think the idea that you could cure mental problems by removing or injuring parts of the brain and body came from?

    Pat

  11. Thank you for that information, Pat!
    Dx, Starting from the bottom up :), it is important to note that autism and savantism are not necessarily linked. Some do consider savantism to be a form of autism, with concurrence rates determined to range from 10-33%, depending on the source of the study, and discounting the variables of sex (with men up to six times more likely to demonstrate savantism in conjunction with Autism).
    So while to some it is a gift, there are others that will call it a curse! Fortunately, however, Autism is frequently treatable. A professor with whom I worked at one time showed us a video of herself as a child. Completely unresponsive- very severe autism. With work, she became so high-functioning, that she could be considered to be “un-autistic”!
    That would be an interesting exercise that you bring up, regarding assists for schizophrenia. I really can’t say for sure that that “wont” work without seeing it attempted or through verifiable and repeatable research. (that’s me to a “t’- can’t really assume anything for or against!).
    On the whole, I would agree with you- the whole goal of any sort of healing is to best enable the person to function in the present world with their entire faculties.
    Sorry so short, this one, I have a lunch to eat :) More in a bit?

  12. The subject of engrams applies to the field of Dianetics, not Scientology. Just wanted to clear that up.

    There’s a DVD out now that teaches anyone to audit it after watching it. Might be worth looking into. Try it out and see if it works. All the theory in the world is not going to answer if it works or not. Only using it and finding out for yourself. The DVD is called
    “How to use Dianetics”

    Pat

  13. Well, what I know is that a person who has received electroshock can not proceed spiritually with for instance auditing because you need the brain in function to operate. It’s not just you “the thetan”, you need the brain and muscle functions in a normal condition. I havent personally heard about cases which have taken care of schizophrenia or autism, but I can’t say if it exists such case, I might have to ask a friend at the sea org if she can look up any records of that.

    Scientology doesnt believe that there are such things as “mental disorders” which you probably grasped by now =) and frankly blaiming it all on engrams actually as far as I’ve come to conclude (remember I haven’t read all there is about scientology).

    So to look up the definition so we are all clear:

    Schizophrenia:

    Any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social contact)

    Now I wouldnt personally go to the great length and tell that this is caused by a malfunction in the brain, it doesnt have to be that in my opinion.
    Think about yourself for a second: Are you in present time? Obviously the answer would be yes, now the schizophrenic guy might not even answer you when you ask. You might conclude: He is somewhere else, not present here in space. Somehow we should be able to bring this guy to present time, as he obviously is stuck somewhere else. I would first try and give him an assist. Look at the wall, (then he wont answer) I repeat the request for him: Look at the wall. And I would do this for as long as it would take to bring him to present time, thats my theory I guess, I suppose I will know more when I’ve read through all the materials =)

    Now when it comes to autism it has been something that I find really fascinating! A guy is extremely good at something specific and has problems doing other silly easy stuff =) I saw this video of a guy who flew with helicopter and he was able to make a perfect duplicate of what he had observed from the helicopter by drawing his observations on a wall. Now I dont know if it was the perfect duplicate but he had painted some very precise specifics on a landmark they flew over. I found that very fascinating and I could only assume that it might be something in what LRH claims that you have soo many more perseptions than just the 5 we know of. I think autism is a gift and a seriously important area to study.

  14. Yes, DX,
    It is tempting, of course, for any one, to explain and justify their actions. We all do it, to some degree, in our daily lives- some of us just deny it to ourselves!
    For example- if one speeds while driving. Technically, it is a crime, but they justify it by noting that they’re a safe driver, and late at that.
    Or one crosses the street at the wrong spot. Technically, jaywalking, but the city should have more crosswalks! :)
    I believe that one must be able to justify their actions, in order to live a moral life. And sometimes, that may involve a crime in order to address a greater good. For example- which among us would not jaywalk in order to help an elderly woman that had fallen? Who would not speed to take their child to the hospital?
    Therefor, I would say that the act is not the issue, but the rationale behind it. To use a previous example- if a child strikes their teacher, that is wrong- but if the teacher were harming another, perhaps in a rage themselves, has that black and white line been blurred? Or has black become white?
    Regarding your requested examples (and, again, note that I am only using the common names for the sake of conversation. I am not claiming that these names are the only possible explanations for the behavior, but that the names to describe a common set of behavior).
    I was wondering if you had any thoughts, or were aware of any scientology research or successes in treating, for instance, a person with schizophrenia or a child with autism? Is it believed, within scientology, that auditing will be effective against those particular disorders?
    I refer to, of course, the the brain is a relatively unimportant organ (cannot remember source on that one, but I was just watching the video yesterday- you know, the scientology series with the fella that dresses up like a doctor?) and that if the body is unwell, it is the thetan that is unwell. In other words, the belief seems to me to be that if the person is demonstrating schizophrenic behaviors, that it is because his spirit is somehow enturbulated.
    But I do wonder the connection to the physical functions of the brain, particularly in the case of physical injury.
    For example, American Railroad worker Phineas T. Gage was injured when a railroad spike, literally, brained him. An explosion drove a spike through his brain, leaving a noticeable hole. Shortly afterwords, his family and friends noted a genuine alteration of his personality, which neuroscientists attributed to the damage incurred to one or more of his frontal lobes. In this case, there was a definite, notable injury to a portion of the brain, which affected his ability to function int he same manner to which he had grown accustomed. His friends and family reported that, after teh accident, “He was no longer Gage”.
    My question is, would scientology consider that to be a notable physical injury to the brain with understandable alteration to his ability to process and function, or would his change in behavior be attributed to the trauma of the injury, while considering the damage to the frontal lobes to be a non-issue?
    -Gill

  15. Well I can start off with saying that I totally agree with you on the part where a lot of criminals probably try to redeem themselves from a criminal act by saying that they had no responsability for their actions, their father is the “reason why he did it” I believe that is an excuse for not taking responsibility for ones criminal act.

    About your question I would probably need some examples of what you are actually asking before I can answer. I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn, but basically what I can tell you is that I’m interested in what I can apply to my life, and how I can help others getting help confronting disturbing incidents of their life. Have you seen the Dianetics dvd “How to use dianetics”? It really gives a total picture on how engrams work.

  16. that was unclear-
    I had meant to say that I do not trust the “rehabilitation” of child sexual abusers, as I do not believe it to be successful in enough cases.

  17. Although I agree with you, I must also say that this is a definite oversimplification that doesn’t address the outlying variables. (although you may be using a specific example, rather than claiming that this is an inevitability- I’m not sure)

    There’s a certain x-factor that can be attributed to multiple sources, from upbringing to an internal capacity to cope. For example, (not sure how far the news spreads), we in the US have suffered multiple disasters, for instance, school shootings. In every case, the perpetrator blamed, in some way, some past trauma, some more extreme than others. This is tragic, but predictable. One needs only to watch court TV (if you have such a thing) to see that same excuse time and time again! (Variations of “I killed that man because my father never hugged me” or some other reason)

    Now, then we have to look at the variable. If you consider event the most conservative estimates, MILLIONS of children are bullied in the US every year. Very few, however, commit such overt crimes.

    But now here is where it gets tricky! One could say that that bullying cannot be completely healed without scientology, and it will always be a part of their life without it. With equal proof (or lack thereof), one may that bullying cannot be completely healed without therapy, and it will always be a part of their life without it! Some may also say that bullying cannot be completely healed without religion/God/etc, and it will always be a part of their life without it!

    Indeed, no one can (and I should think would) presume to say that they know for a fact that childhood experiences are the cause for their state today. Furthermore, this would not account for the many that have such childhood experiences and grow up healthy, happy and whole.

    I would agree, that within this context (not, of course, discussing psychiatric conditions with a possible medical reason), the key is to address it at its root where ever that may lie. For instance, speaking from the viewpoint of my abnormal psychology background (with a focus towards terrorism, as an factoid), I would not only consider the bullying that the child in your example suffered, but I would also consider what made him a target in the first place? Bullies, as we all know, target the weakest of the herd, and it is not unusual for bullying targets to be chosen because they are already suffering in another unrelated instance (for instance, home life). I would say that while rage can be healthy (anger is more productive than sorrow), if the child were to go so far as to strike an adult, you would definitely find far more in their life than laughing and teasing. This is a limitation of event-driven “regressive” therapy, where additional factors are often ignored once the immediate cause is identified.

    For example, let’s assume that this school, like many in the US have a “zero tolerance” approach to bullying. Good on them. So when the child acts out, he reveals that he has been bullied by these children and it greatly affected him. Teh school says, “ah, problem solved! these kids drove him to rage!”, and take action against the children. However, they did not explore the other factors in his life and he goes home to an abusive family, and punished further and excessively.

    Personally, from the perspective of a non-scientologist, I would not label someone as a “violent guy” for a singular act. In particular, as a Christian, I would be remiss to do so, as I am called to forgive, judge not, and hate the sin, not the sinner. Instead, I believe in redemption (the concept upon which our American society, to some extent is based, where we attempt to redeem our criminals rather than solely punish them) and believe that one should not be “hated by everyone”, particularly in a situation similar to the one you discussed. (I do not consider child sexual abusers exempt, however, but that is my opinion based on recidivism rates)

    Regarding Wundt, my history is a little bit shaky, but his theories have largely been superseded by newer theories made possible by scientific advancement (like physical medicine, greater technology results in greater knowing), so I wouldn’t say that he’s “worshipped”, but I would say that some of his philosophies, particularly the use of a holistic approach to mental health, are still considered relevant today.

    If you have time, I would be very eager as to your opinion on psychiatric/engram-based behaviors with an identifiable medical cause, or in cases which are not directly attributed to a singular event?

  18. You are going in a little over my head here I think. Let me make an example: People laughed at you at school every day. You answered with disapproval and got angry. But then they laughed even more and you were then a mixture of sad and angry. You would make strong effort to not show that you are sad because then you know everyone would know that you are weak, so you try to look faceless. You feel you need to become stronger so you overcome the humiliation, but then you get humiliated again, this time you go down to rage on the tone scale and hit out a couple of your teacher’s teeth. Whats gonna happen now? Well obviously punishment, (as if he didnt get punished enough, already.) Schools accept humiliation but violence is totally off limits so you will probably get expelled, but if you get granted a second chance, you’ll be hated by everyone so it doesnt matter.
    Now everyone “knows” that you are dangerous. Now you are the “unstable” guy at school that people cant have around them. The teacher in the attempt to revenge that she was given pain, wants to get you as far away from her as possible and destroy as much as possible for you because you inflicted her pain. You are now labeled “A VIOLENT GUY”. This is your sticker for the rest of your life. And then reason for this? People identify eachother by what they’ve done. What you’ve done is what you are, you can never change, you are doomed by your actions. Scientology doesnt teach this way, psychology is worshipping Wilhelm Wundt and thats the obvious basis for psychiatry so I hope there is no doubt about my position on this now?

    You know the feeling that you need to revenge what had been done to you at school. Or the empty feeling that you proved to be a zero because you got bullied and were too weak to resist and stand up for yourself. The anger and sadness you feel, why you didnt have the strength and courage, this dominates your whole life, it sits deep inside you like a demon (i use demon cuz someone mentioned that about engrams).Auditing takes care of this, and rids the “demon”.

  19. See, now, DX, THAT is a workable belief system that can benefit a person.
    The Christians and other religious groups, for example, have the same belief system, if you replace the word “engram” with “demon”, the concept is essentially the same.
    I would also say that, based on my studies, it is a poor psychiatrist/therapist that immediately refers one to drugs. In reality, the ethical thing to do, and in my experience, the common thing, is to first explore the root- to go back to it and find the cause. This is very similar to your concept above.
    As you are aware, psychiatrists are doctors. They have a bona fide medical degree, and are thus subject to the Hippocratic Oath, “first do no harm”. There are those (and we can only opine as to the statistics, as only the individuals know!) that seem to believe that drugs are more effective than therapy, and they are doing harm, whether it be good-natured but misguided or driven by greed.
    In fact, the concept of “regression therapy” is a system of belief adopted by many therapists (although not generally medical professionals) and is very similar to the concepts of Mr. Hubbard, in that the spirit engages multiple lives and can carry over trauma or beliefs from one body tot he next.
    So I would agree, and most actual mental health professionals would as well, that the first goal should always be to determine that cause, if one’s behavior is the cause, and I think that scientology, therapy and many other religions are all valid techniques for addressing these issues.
    Are you aware (I can find no case studies, which means nothing other than “I can find no case studies) of any attempt by scientology to address other disorders (which, for the sake of conversation, I will call by their psychiatric term, being well aware that these are not terms that would be used by scientology; but I hope that we can understand that I am using mutually understood terms to describe certain behaviors that area ascribed to a disorder) such as autism, schizophrenia, OCD, Body Dysmorphic Disorder, etc?

  20. What we are facing today is a world were these abberations are considered to be mental illnesses, but in fact engrams are creating psychical diseases and malfunction on a person. By getting rid of these engrams you wouldnt have drug people. Just imagine if you were a person who doesnt control your anger, and no matter how hard you tried, you still couldn’t. Psychiatrists wouldnt wait a second claiming that he is sick somehow and needs to be treated for this condition. It seems like all abberation is illness according to psychiatry. But this guy with an anger problem HAS EXPERIENCED SOMETHING IN HIS LIFE THAT MAKES HIM ACT THIS WAY! He wasnt always angry, so something made him angry, in my opinion. And yes not everyone needs psychiatric meds for anger, some people go to anger management, but does that mean that he got rid of the actual reasons that made him angry?

  21. Fallroot: To make one thing clear, just because I call myself a scientologist, doesnt mean I’ve closed the doors for anything. I don’t know all there is to know about scientology, I know what I know and the rest is going to be an adventure to find and observe if works. Scientology is a great game, which I’ve chosen to have in my life, it doesn’t mean that all else is wrong, or that psychology is wrong. I’m just very happy with what I do, Scientology is: “Observe for yourself what is true for you”. It’s an adventure into yourself and your life. If complete freedom as a spiritual being exists (because I do believe I am a spiritual being, thats the only thing I have actual FAITH in rather than clear observation) at least Scientology promises a way towards that freedom. I wouldnt make you wrong, I wouldnt attack you for having a different path, I have no problem with that, and by clearing the planet doesnt mean that you should be taken away your rights to do what you want in your life, but to rid mankind of abberation which is considered “normal human behaviour”. Read about engrams in dianetics, this is what its about. The new dianetics video “How to do dianetics” came out a couple of days ago and its amazing =)

  22. DeathereX,
    Sorry, friend, almost missed this message!
    I am so happy that you found something that works for you. I found the same in my own religious beliefs and with, please don’t judge me for this, a study of psychology. I, too, am very happy, and I am very glad that you have found a path that works for you!
    I, again, do hope that my criticism is not taken personally. In fact, I apply the same criticism to my own beliefs! While sometimes I can’t answer even myself, criticism is the only way to ensure a true faith. Blind faith is fail, but a true faith is one that has indeed been tested.
    You seem to have knickers on straight- when you identify one of your friends as a potential sp, does that affect how you treat or feel about them?
    I believe the same about scientologists that I do about all religious adherents. I believe that the majority believe in what they are doing, and truly want to do good. I may not share all of your beliefs, my friend, particularly some of the advanced level courses (of which I am sure you will reach someday), but that certainly wouldn’t give me the right to try to rob you of them! Likewise, I may not believe that the earth is sitting on a turtle’s back, as some believe, but who am I to judge?
    Instead, I believe that most scientologists (right or wrong, true of false) believe that they have a responsibility to the planet, and I respect anyone that will seriously pursue such a thing. Of course, I have certain criticisms, but it is criticism, as I mentioned earlier, that cement a church, no matter the type. I would love to see the cos succeed, but hope that it understands that it must overcome public scrutiny, as did my “sect” brethren in the early christian church.
    truly, history will judge each of us.

  23. Oh did i ever talk to a Scientologist?
    Not in person, because there are only about 50.000 in the US. So the probability to meet one is very very low, unless you live in Clearwater or LA of course.
    But Scientology or the name L. Ron Hubbard has pretty much never been heard of in ca 99.999999 % of the world.

  24. “ROFL…. yes, L. Ron Hubbard was not a “Saviour”. Did you ever talk to a Scientologist, Anon? Or is that above your courage level?”

    1. “saviour” is british english for american “savior”
    2. Read a book that wasn’t written by Hubbard for once in your life

  25. My story in scientology is this: I bought this book on the street at some stand which was “Dianetics”. I didnt look much into the book before like 6 months later and realized that this was EXACTLY the thing I was looking for because I had always known there were things with me that made me unable to reach my full potensial, and in order to have that, I also was convinced that it had to be something an individual had to find out within his own mind, and go through the incidents in his life that had been painful. This was before I read the book, and there it was, just like I always had been convinced of, this guy L Ron Hubbard had a book on how to do this! It was like OMG I was right!!
    I read like half of the book and got busy with other things. I just kinda delayed it until I had better time getting into this. I started reading the book again after a year and thats when I found out I needed to find out if any people were into dianetics and wanted to do this with me, although it needed two persons for auditing. Thats when I started researching who L Ron Hubbard was and I realized it was a religion named scientology, but I’d never heard about it before.

    I went to an org after that and spent a week there doing the dianetics seminar and got some dianetics auditing, and I really liked it. And thats when I started researching everything, I read a lot of claims about L Ron Hubbard and Scientology but I had a stable datum: I wanted to do this because this was the thing I had looked for my entire life! I got some resistance from my friends and my family when I told them I had started to take cources at the church of scientology, and at the end there was just too much for me, I needed to go to an org and find out for myself.

    I took the PTS/SP course and it really gave me insane cognitions! Since I was 7 years old I rememeber I analyzed peoples behavior and tone level (without knowing about scientology tech obviously) and I developed an ability to know who to trust, and to this day I can honestly say that only perhaps 2 or 3 people have ever surpriced me and become another person than I have analyzed them to be.
    This was what the PTS/SP course was about, it was amazing, and I use the tech from this course to this day putting up an analysation of the mental condition of my friends: Either low on tone scale, high on tone scale, PTS, or potensial SP, and every time I speak to a new person I determine their place on the tone scale.
    Even though I am new to scientology, I have tech to use my entire life. Cost me 200 dollars to buy these cources added up and that just makes me wonder how seriously much I can apply to my life when I do more courses!!

    I thank LRH for resolving the biggest confusion in this life. Life it self and how to master it!

  26. dudette,
    he said to check out archive.org- the wayback machine. early versions of the site… u can see no ref being a aprt of scn or ron. u only list current vers that have ben changed. first part of existenc, they did not ack scn connection.
    tru fact.

  27. errr- Gill.

  28. DeathereX,
    I am curious- clearly, you saw some things that really spoke to you!
    What was it that you saw that you liked? Was it the way they lived their lives, their increased capability to function in the world, or something else?
    I’m just curious about what it is that you saw that had such a profound effect on you.
    I, too, and glad that you found something that works for you!
    Chris

  29. # Comment by Fallroot on July 20, 2009 6:30 pm
    “ummm…
    I gotta call BS on that one. use the web archive (archive.org) to look at the earliest versions of the Youth for Human Rights website. No mention of scientology anywhere.”

    Doesn’t make sense. You have to talk to the guy who claims that YHRI is a PR activity of the Church of Scientology.

    – Louanne

  30. #Comment by Anonymous on July 21, 2009 3:36 am

    “L. Ron Hubbard wasn’t a Saviour.”

    ROFL…. yes, L. Ron Hubbard was not a “Saviour”. Did you ever talk to a Scientologist, Anon? Or is that above your courage level?

    – L

  31. Fallroot: I am a public scientologist. I do work full time as a security guard when I’m not doing cources and reading, and I also spend some time playing guitar.

    Yeah I know quite some scientologists, and it’s the best friends I’ve ever had =) Code of honor: “Never desert a comrade in need.” =)

  32. DeathereX, L. Ron Hubbard wasn’t a Saviour. Read the book “bare faced messiah” and learn about the true story of L. Ron Hubbard, before you join this pseudo-religion. It is available online. With a simple google search you will find it.

  33. If it’s not too personal, are there many scientologists in Norway, from what you’ve observed? I haven’t seen those stats, but I wonder if you have many people to fellowship with?

  34. Hey, DeathereX,
    I’ve done that, and that’s part of my belief as to why I think that most of those folks are downright good people. Like I said, I have no problem with the belief system (but do have some critical questions, which I believe are healthy for any believer)
    Example- I’m Christian. One of my best friends is an atheist (at the time, he was a satanist). He’s asked some very probing questions- at times very aggressive, but we’ve always enjoyed it and kept on good terms. He checked out my side- I checked out his side, and we both kept our own positions, but have maintained a respect for eachother.
    If I may ask delicately, are you a practicing scientologist, staff or org?
    _FR

  35. Yeah no offence taken, I enjoy listening to different opinions, as truth is probably what we both seek.
    I’ve been born into a christian family and I never really “believed” anything but thats the thing, I’ve never been a religious guy, before I actually started to look into scientology, I am not especially interested in religions, I do want to help people and scientology is more like a applied philosophy where you observe for yourself what is true or not, rather than a religion in the way that most people refer to as religion. I’ve spent much time reading critical information, one day I was like now I’m going to check out the COS side of this, and I was amazed to say atleast! I dont know how much you can find on this, perhaps the only way is to visit their homes and ask ;)

  36. Well, you know what, DeathereX, more power to you! I think that it’s great that you’ve found something that works for you, and I applaud your decision to follow a belief system.
    I am so very glad that the church has worked out well for you. Personally, I believe (and it’s something that I see in you) that most scientologists are generally good people that want to do good things. I do believe that they want to do what’s right.
    Now, I do believe that there are some things that need reform. That’s my personal belief, and I hope that you know that it in no way reflects on you, yourself. Like I said, I applaud your right to believe what you would choose, and I appreciate that you allow me my critical thinking and discussion.
    I haven’t looked into those names that you had mentioned, but perhaps we can find some information somewhere on those inter-webs :)
    _FR

  37. Fallroot: Welll with “silence” i mean that you somehow make the person unable to continue with his critisism towards the church, probably like the confusion that Stacy and Vaughn Young, Bob Minton, LRH’s son, Jon Atack, and a number of other critics now are totally silent. I have no idea what happened to them, I’m really glad that they don’t pop up on the news and all over the internet, but I’d really like to know what happened =P

    However the most important thing is to understand L Ron Hubbard in my opinion. I consider him a savior, and I know that the church follows his words, and I feel I can totally trust him, keeping in mind that I have no memory of ever actually trusted someone that deceived me in life when I started getting good at observing people and their intentions. Scientology is what I’ve been waiting to find all my life.

  38. “just as the link you provide is a fake article that no Scientologist would ever write like this”

    seriously? was that a knee-jerk reaction, or had you read any of his other work?
    He writes about how great scientology is, how helpful the vm’s are, and how the cos has worked diligently in order to make sure that the “psychotics” that have commited violent acts within the church have been removed, and that anons are criminals that attack the church.

    Are you saying that that was a con?

    Lou, seriously, no one’s against you here. I can see you’re getting upset, and I’m not attacking you. I am critical, but I criticize the things that I believe dearly. If you need a break, just say so. I’m sure we would all respect that.

    Your friend,
    _FR

  39. haw, so now we say that someone forges positive news about scientology???
    that is quite a cnspiracy theory!
    would luv to see any traces of evidence of anon bragging. if was online u can take screensot, no?

  40. ummm…
    I gotta call BS on that one. use the web archive (archive.org) to look at the earliest versions of the Youth for Human Rights website. No mention of scientology anywhere. They use an AOL email address and claimed to have been formed by the The International Foundation for Human Rights and Tolerance, which is currently unavailable, but the wayback machine also shows no mention of scientology at that site.
    So, contrary to Hubbard’s direction, this site was founded and started USING scientology but not CLAIMING scientology.
    Compare that to the CoS PR machine- a few well known posters are responsible for hundreds of self-published press releases and “news” articles. I think this is what he means.
    So, proof’s in the pudding- does the CoS plan to help in Iran, or will it be left to the anons? Your accusations and blame is baseless, and just your own analysis- but at least someone is trying to help, and all you can do is smear them. It’s not becoming, and I don’t understand why you hate them so much.
    These folks need to get news in and out- who else can do that right now?
    Louanne, even if you hate them, they can still do good.

  41. # Comment by Anonymous on July 20, 2009 5:52 pm

    ““The WWP one-man show added this Iran nonsense as a PR action to get more visitors to his site.”

    LOL, you mean like Scientology’s thousands of front groups, like Youth for Human Rights, whose only purpose is a PR front to give the illusion that Scientology would [arrogant bla-bla cut] ”

    Thousands of front groups? LOL, there are no Scientology groups that do not say that they are either supported by the Church of Scientology or were created based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard. Not one. Youth for Human Rights, which I happen to be very much familiar with, is doing human rights education in dozens of countries and to thousands of people who need it, every day of the year. The material used for that is the UN Declaration of Human Rights and only that. The feedback from those who received the help and how they use it to overcome discrimination and human rights violations is what counts for me. Dream on.

    – Louanne

  42. #Comment by MilliVanilli on July 20, 2009 5:27 pm

    “Oh, yes, ma’am, I get it very well.
    Anonymous is trying to help, and scientology is doing nothing.”

    Well, that’s a lie and you know it (just as the link you provide is a fake article that no Scientologist would ever write like this). The truth of the matter is that a hand full of technically trained security pros have brought much more effective help against human rights violations than a bunch of so-called Anonymous that brag how they got everyone to leave their IPs on their system. I believe in the work of witness.org and others who do not hide their efforts and have a workable system to prevent themselves from infiltration. They also do not need to lie about their true intentions and commit crimes under the cloak of “help”. Anonymous is just an invitation for those you actually try to defend against. At best you fell for a PR spin, sorry to say, and at worst you try to support a group that has destruction and harassment very well on top of their agenda.

    – Louanne

  43. “The WWP one-man show added this Iran nonsense as a PR action to get more visitors to his site.”

    LOL, you mean like Scientology’s thousands of front groups, like Youth for Human Rights, whose only purpose is a PR front to give the illusion that Scientology would somehow be charitable, although Scientology’s only purpose is to make stupid, rich people spend money on useless crap?

  44. DeathereX,
    I am certainly glad that you are able to find such answers! I have not encountered the church offices in Norway, so I really cannot attest to that.
    I had tried, here in America, and did not have as much success. I suppose it does matter, who you talk to and where!
    Could you please clarify what you mean by “silence”? Was that literal or metaphorical?
    thanks, and Drømmen Teater er stor!
    _FR

  45. Lou,
    I really don’t see why he deserved that hostility- he asked a very sincere question.
    It’s real, no matter our personal beliefs. This has been reported in nowpublic, wired, worldchanging.com and londoncommons each with independent sources. Particualrly wired, a very reputable source.
    I have not seen “core anons” bragging about this- could you please provide a reference?
    I can understand why you hate “anons” when they are against your beliefs- but why in this instance?
    _FR

  46. Oh, yes, ma’am, I get it very well.
    Anonymous is trying to help, and scientology is doing nothing.
    I do a search for “anonymous iran” in google news and get over 7 million results. I saw hope when I saw here http://www.rantrave. bcom/Rant/Sport-and-Scientology-to-aid-Iran.aspx that scienotlogy will help in Iran, but that was a month ago and they have done nothing at all.
    So when my family and my collegues are thirsty, we will accept water from those that offer it, and your consipiracy theories will only serve to scare my people further. They provide facts, you provide fear. and an unrelated link, such anonymous has taught my people how to use encryption.
    okay, get it- anon helps, scientology opposes them even then. that is a deep hatred, when you’re not even in the fight.

  47. Wow, lotsa responses here….! My I say something too?

    On this one: #Comment by MilliVanilli on July 19, 2009 6:21 pm

    MV,

    seriously, are you kidding? The WWP one-man show added this Iran nonsense as a PR action to get more visitors to his site. Some core Anons even bragged about it. If that action would have been effective it could have brought many human rights fighters in serious trouble. But true human rights fighters are smarter than that. If you don’t get what I say, read on:

    To provide proxies for the guys in Iran might have been a good idea, one would think. But now think it through: I don’t know how many Iran secret service guys used the cover of “Anonymous” to provide “secure” proxies that did nothing but collect personal information for later prosecution. As usual Anon fails on giving you certainty and security but provides a cover for crims and others who want to keep their true intentions secret. If you don’t believe me, well check this out:

    http://www.h-online.com/security/Phishing-attacks-on-Tor-anonymisation-network–/news/95778

    Get it?

    – Louanne

  48. The truth is avaliable, even inside the church. The DSA (Department of special affairs) can provice data on this on critical questions or confusions you might have.I have personally had some serious questions for the church and I was given the answers without any problem by the DSA, and I didn’t have to go through sec checking or having to face people who were critical of me, looking at me as an potensial SP or anything. Any person who wants to get answers to critical information can be answered. The most important thing is however to see if scientology works, I am very glad to be a member of the organisation especially because the organisation is what makes scientology expand and most important SURVIVE in the world we live in with people seeking to destroy it for simple reasons, which doesnt take away the fact that scientology HAS helped and DOES still help a lot of people on this planet.
    A staff member doesn’t always do the right things after the book, for instance if a staff member broke the law by silencing a critical person in order to protect his organisation, it does NOT mean that the organisation “operates this way against critics”.

  49. This article about anonymous is instructive, as it shows how anonymous is depicted inside the Church. L Ron Hubbard might have a few things to say here. First, Ron says that “what is true for you is what you have observed for yourself”. I have met many different types of people in anonymous, and I certainly do not agree with all of them. However, the characterizations of this church article are completely false according to my observation. Second, in KSW1 Ron states that attacks occur only when there are “bad results” or “no results”. So, look inside the church for the true source of the attacks, not outside. Maybe there is gross out-tech occurring. Third, Ron states that protests and riots come about through grave injustice. People are angered by tales of injustice, and again, from what I have seen many of these tales are true. Fourth, Ron also states that society itself will protest if they are not allowed to have Scientology. Scientology is an exclusive group. The training lineup has been altered to inhibit auditor training, and heavy ethics are applied to blunt the intention of auditors. So, forget a co-audit up the bridge. Where you can even get auditing in an HGC, it is priced beyond the means of the average person. Fine, if you don’t want people to get audited, expect trouble from groups like anonymous and society in general. Finally, LRH says LOOK, don’t listen. You may be getting all manner of false reports within the church, yet you are not allowed to look for true data. I have been to Rons Org and experienced it, I can guarantee that you have been repeating harmful and suppressive lies about it. I hope that you can muster the courage to look for yourself. However, truth has a price. The price in the church is mighty high. You could lose your friends and family if you look.

  50. _FR’s right.
    This is a big issue, and, MV- we are ALL (I assume?) here for you.
    While I’m not a “member” of anonymous (which, of course, has not official membership), I do know for a fact that they will stay with this until it’s resolved, as I’m sure could be attested here!
    I am sure that you will find, MV that the scientologists here will also support you- there are some things that we all have in common, some things that are bigger than our issues here.
    -Gill

  51. ooops-
    many should read “man”.

  52. Hello, MilliVanilli,
    First off, I would hope that you will keep us informed about your family. I know it’s not our business, but now that we’re aware of it, I’m sure that all of us do care.
    “Anonymous” is like a school of fish or a flock of birds. Each one is unique and each one can operate on their own. However, at some points, they feel the need to work together in order to achieve a goal. Fish, for instance, will band together to find food, but this doesn’t mean that every fish you see in a school has the same goal.
    So what you have is a group of people that geniunely care about people like your family, and will do whatever they can to help.
    And it would seem that it is already being successful.
    I know that news is difficult to come by, since the government controls the media and the internet filters. I truly hope that you won’t find any names you recognize, but please see http://iran.whyweprotest.net/missing-persons/ . Anonymous is doing everything they can to help get information out there.
    I know this is off-topic, Louanne, but this is bigger than our small differences- this many (?) is personally affected, and I hope that we can support him here.

  53. while researching (as I have family in Iran) I have stumbled across this site:
    http://gerdab.ir/fa/pages/?cid=407v
    This is maintained by unknown parties and shows (and circles) some of the protestors. I do fear for their safety, as hundreds of them have been arrested or are missing.
    At this point, I am grateful for any group that cares to pick up this issue and that is trying to help keep these men and women safe!
    Do scientolgists agree with them on this issue, at least, and if so, will they be helping?
    I am curious but am hopeful

  54. All,
    I appreciate this site- I’ve been enjoying the discussions, and feel that ya’ll have some good points.

    Ms. Louanne, what is the scientologist perspective on the work that “anonymous” is doing to help the protesters in Iran? Of course, the ruling government has seized power and is attempting to control the masses and silence criticism.

    According to the Business Pundit,

    “Social Media and Social Networking have come to play a huge part in getting out information about the protests. Not only is information being spread to people participating in the protests in Iran, but an international theatre has been set for the entire world to see using the internet. People in Iran went to using tools such as Twitter and Facebook. Once the government caught on, they began to shut down and filter the networks.

    Anonymous joined the game. “Anonymous” as the group is called has no leader, no structural hierarchy, but is somehow organized. Made up of every possible profession to include even hackers and business professionals alike, Anonymous has proven in their fight against Scientology, that they are a force to be reckoned with. “Anons” as they have come to be known started Tweeting open Iranian proxies, as well as started a forum http://iran.whyweprotest.net offering advice and help to Iranian protestors as how to surf securely and avoid censorship. They are also telling Protestors to turn off their cell phones as the government can track them via BT antenna, find, and arrest them later. A link was also posted of proxies that the Iranian Government is using to get around their own firewalls.

    Anonymous is not going to pull any punches, they have never done so. Under the guise of Anonymity, their numbers are strong. Cells of Anonymous are willing and prepared to fight this fight, they do not let tyranny go un-punished or unreported.

    Many journalists and US supporters of the protests have reported they have been threatened by the Iranian government. Since “Anons” are “Anonymous” and they know how to remain that way in the digital world, if they stick to their guns, we can see a whole new digital revolution, one that just might help change the world. ”

    What is the scientologist view on this act that’s seen as favorable by so many?

    Thanks,
    MilliVanilli


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