What a nice surprise in the Washington Post!
Endnotes do not save ‘Going Clear’
Friday, January 25, 2:58 PM
Lisa Miller’s Jan. 20 review [“ There are fads and cults. Then there’s Scientology ,” Outlook] of Lawrence Wright’s book “ Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief ” decried bias against religious minorities, yet Wright’s book represents exactly that. Forty pages of endnotes may have impressed Miller, but what they refer to are a collection of stale, unfounded tabloid stories, decades-old false allegations and rank speculation mostly sourced to a handful of bitter individuals kicked out of the church a decade or more ago.
The Church of Scientology has identified more than 200 errors so far in the book, ranging from the wrong year for the marriage of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes to the erroneous claim that the church owns a bank and schools in Clearwater, Fla., a claim Wright could have at least attempted to verify via public records. Wright also regurgitates news clippings without mentioning that the claims were later recanted — some under oath — or tossed out during judicial proceedings. So much for “endnotes.”
Miller’s review also failed to note that Wright’s United Kingdom and Canadian publishers chose not to publish the book, which speaks to the quality of his facts, allegations and sources. If a book tells the truth, would any publisher worry?
Millions of Scientologists around the world embrace the religion. Their experiences of happier and more fulfilling lives fuel the church’s international expansion, and our humanitarian programs help thousands daily. Since Wright began his research, we have opened 30 churches worldwide, a dozen in 2012 alone, and a National Affairs Office a half-mile from The Post. Those facts were not in Mr. Wright’s book or his endnotes.
Karin Pouw,
Los Angeles
The writer is director of public affairs for the Church of Scientology
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hey you know what? I just researched all the questiones that were asked in this dreadfully long thread and found just about every answer at scientologymyths.info dang that would have saved me allot of grief lol.
Well, I’ll only go for as long as my wife’s getting pampered at the day spa. When she gets back, I’m taking a break :)
damn, wrong spot. My bad.
I feel sorry for these people who try to ridicule people’s religion. The truly sad part is how committed they are to doing it. It’s a sickness.
I see allot these crackpots going on about how they are trying to help the public and so forth —your not helping anyone, and my guess is if you have this much time to devote to harassing people, then you probably don’t have a job or don’t have a fulfilling one.
If you want to be of service to people then join the SERVICE. Or if you are physically or MENTALLY incapable or some how handicapped, there are so many other areas of service you can apply to.
(Deep breath) ok I feel better.
Thank you, Andy
Ill read the book and buy it used so the author gets nothing from me. Scientology is a gift and one if not the greatest religion ever iv studied it for years and I can’t wait for the day I into a church and ask how can I help.
What an awesome point of view, Michael. LRH says a being is only as valuable as he can serve others.
Read this too if you’re going to read the book
http://lawrencewrightgoingclear.com/
you can also click on my name, Michael, for a recent interview where the author acknowledges and discusses some of the errors in his book. You seem like the type to be willing to learn everything about a subject!
Oh yes I’m willing to learn everything about Scientology however for me the good has out weight the bad. I don’t have a church close to me if I did I’d be right there. I also would love to attend narconon for prescription drug addiction however can’t right now so I hope I’m alive to join the only religion that truly wants to help people. I’m only 29 so theres still hope for me also I know Scientology would give me a life I never thought I had. It’s beautiful
This book has really started a great deal of research! Just like, I’m sure, the recent lawsuits have generated interest in finding out the truth!
Newsweek columnist Tony Dokoupil has come across a previously unconsidered source in finding information about Hubbard’s life- the files and records of the Explorer’s Club! It’s a great idea, because LRH was very proud of his membership there, and told them so very much!
Among the records of the club (which saved every letter written to them by every member):
He did NOT kiss a bear! (clearly in jest, apparently the entire club was rolling at his humorous recounting of a journey)
When writing going clear, Wright used later-day sources when talking about LRH’s war history, but entirely failed to consider the private letters written by the then-young man! These records are found in his letters to the explorer’s club and response to the club’s survey. While LRH later claimed that he was flown home injured, he told the club that his orders were canceled, and had two book reviews in the club’s next newsletter during the time he was supposedly at war.
While LRH talks about his grave injuries that he self-treated using dianetics, he again told the club something very different. He complained to the club about “losing his command” and that his injuries amounted to “nothing very romantic—combat fatigue, ulcers, a bad limp.” He also signed into the Explorer’s club (they have a log book) during a time that he later claimed he was at war.
According to LRH’s later claims, he developed Dianetics by curing himself in 1945. That would have been something to talk about! But in 1947, he filled out a club questionarre. Under “distinctions achieved”, he noted “none extraordinary, or worth listing.” He concludes, “unable to pass physical for higher rank than Lt USNR during war.”
That’s the tip of the spear, but all very interesting.
“According to LRH’s later claims, he developed Dianetics by curing himself in 1945″
Which reference is that where he claims that? It’s pretty funny actually since Dianetics needs 2 people,by LRH’s own technology. In Dianetics, one addresses the unconscious mind and a person alone is not aware of that mind so I’d appreciate having the reference where you got that. The book is in the library
Sure!
“In one very interesting moment, Davis said, ‘Of course, if it’s true that Mr. Hubbard was never injured during the war, then he never did heal himself using Dianetics principles, then Dianetics is based on a lie, and then Scientology is based on a lie.”
-Tommy Davis, Scientology Spokesman
Sorry, if that’s your “source” for that allegation then you’d better look up the definition of documentation. What document (lecture, bulletin, book etc.) is it from where LRH made this claim in 1945?
so the official spokesperson for scientology isn’t an accurate source? was he wrong in what he said?
so how do YOU think Hubbard healed from his claimed ‘war injuries’?
Comment by sayingintotality on January 28, 2013 5:16 am
“so the official spokesperson for scientology isn’t an accurate source? was he wrong in what he said?”
What did he say that LRH claimed? He doesn’t. Looks like you guys are getting desperate enough to take some sarcastic comment and present it as something else. Some desperate attempt to create another myth? It sounds like sarcasm to me. Did you really take it literally? LOL
Comment by sayingintotality on January 28, 2013 6:13 am
“so how do YOU think Hubbard healed from his claimed ‘war injuries’?”
I’ve heard him tell about researching Dianetics on others while at the hospital, but never once did he claim to heal himself with Dianetics. If you had read the book you’d know that would have been impossible, due to the nature of the unconscious mind. If I had to guess, SINCE HE WAS IN A HOSPITAL, that the hospital or doctors, using medical knowledge, had something to do with his getting better. But then that would be too presumptuous on my part to assume that (sarcasm, btw, in case you were going to take it literally).
“What did he say that LRH claimed? He doesn’t. Looks like you guys are getting desperate enough to take some sarcastic comment and present it as something else. Some desperate attempt to create another myth? It sounds like sarcasm to me. Did you really take it literally? LOL”
Yup, sure did- because it was said literally. You probably never read the interview, so I can’t blame you for not knowing, but the official scientology spokesman said that during the interview as an explanation for what scientology “is”. He wasn’t being sarcastic and never claimed that he was. You’re just throwing that word out there and wishing it’s true.
Of course, Tommy Davis disappeared immediately after that interview, so maybe he said the wrong thing.
“I’ve heard him tell about researching Dianetics on others while at the hospital, but never once did he claim to heal himself with Dianetics.”
Hmmm, okay, so the official spokesperson for scientology was wrong. I guess that makes sense, since the last two spokesmen for scientology are now very critical of the church, huh? Maybe a third, since you’re telling me that hubbard DIDN’T cure himself in the hospital, which Tommy Davis said means that scientology is based on a lie.
But, as we can see in his war record, hubbard tended to lie a lot (nature of injuries, awards, etc).
Oh, by the way, a site owned by CSI claims “Left partially blind and lame from injuries sustained in combat, Lieutenant L. Ron Hubbard was diagnosed as permanently disabled by 1945 and hospitalized in Oakland, California. By this point, however, he had evolved the first practical procedures for alleviating trauma…Utilizing the same procedures, he likewise regained his own health—much to the bafflement of medical examiners.”
So… you were saying something about the doctors and their medical knowledge?
It’s awesome that the director of public affairs wrote a letter to the editor? Am I missing something significant here, or are we just celebrating the fact that her letter got published?
I think it’s worth celebrating, because it shows that the paper is willing to discuss both sides. While the paper itself published a positive review of the book, it’s nice that they allowed the letter to the editor to be published.
I’m with you, yay fair journalism!
On a related note, I’ve seen Karen speaking (in writing only, not publicly) for the church much more often lately. Why is Tommy Davis no longer representing scientology on camera?
He has not been seen in public since the taped interview when he said that if Hubbard didn’t heal himself from his injuries using Dianetics, then Dianetics is a lie. And if Dianetics is a lie, then Scientology is based on a lie (I paraphrase).
He hasn’t spoken publicly for scientology since that time, which is interesting given the fact that LRH’s own letters and military records suggest that he actually didn’t heal himself using dianetics.
You might be on to something- it appears that he was removed from the Scientology public affairs website (I hear in 2011, when I looked into it). I hope he’s okay- I hear that he and his wife are living in Texas now.
Karen has been PR director long before Tommy became spokesman. (Two different posts, btw).
He probably got a new post. It happens in the Sea Org. LOL
Ah, maybe that explains where shelly miscavige is, then.
@ andy13clark
But think about what you’re saying. For one, ridicule- why should anything be above satire? I’m assuming you’re okay with television shows like “The Colbert Report” or “Saturday Night Live”, things like that where they satirize political beliefs and politicians themselves. Why is that okay but religion is somehow off limits? Can you satirize some beliefs but not others? Are there different standards?
And you’ve created what’s called a “Stawman” argument, where you simplify the argument into a single, easier-to-refute topic. This isn’t conducive to conversation or discussion, because you leave our the entire concept of criticism, which is different than satire. Should scientology be somehow exempt from criticism, which is built into the US Constitution? Should we be able to criticize our government and other groups, but just pretend like there’s absolutely no problems within scientology? Do YOU even believe that there’s nothing within scientology that should be criticized?
I believe in freedom of speech, and that an organization could be improved through criticism and by listening to the opinions of the masses. This is ESPECIALLY true for organizations that I’m being asked to support with my tax dollars- if Scientology is exempt from paying taxes, and my taxes are higher as a result, don’t I have some right to consider the worth of the organization?
You also bring out another logical fallacy called an “ad hominem” attack, by implying that anyone that criticizes scientology “probably (doesn’t) have a job or (doesn’t) have a fulfilling one.” Not only is that irrelevant to the legitimacy of criticism, but it also attempts to dismiss any contrary points with a broad brush. It’s based on insufficient information, yet you somehow drew a conclusion as to the likelihood of unemployment or unfulfillment based solely on one’s beliefs. Do you often draw conclusions without enough information?
So, if you feel better after all saying all that- using a few logical fallacies, failing to separate two important concepts and decrying the legitimacy of both free speech and the validity of criticism- then you might want to reconsider your priorities.
SIgh, comment nesting is AWFUL on this blog when using the hidemyass proxy.
First of all you are “decrying” freedom of religion.. And please don’t get into the constitution with me I am a decorated combat veteran of OIF. I can’t say I welcome your useless attacks on my religion but obviously you are free to do that, I helped insure that right. And even more obvious, this is an open forum… Genius.
I do assume you don’t have a fullfiling life so what?
Like I said, I’m a veteran, and where I come from (the united states army) we consider people like you to be losers and from my experience you are often unemployed or have a less than desirable employment and hate life as it were.
These opinions are mine and I do not speak for anyone but myself, just to make that clear.
So in my opinion you and your kind are pathetic losers who are in desperate need of help or at least a hug.
That’s all I will say to you beyond this. I don’t want to give you too much pleasure as that would only enable you further.
… what a moron … (Real deep breath) ok back to the important things.
I should clear up one thing though. I am considerably new to Scientology. It has help me so much in just a few months where the VA has only made me more sick in the last 10 years.
So with that you may notice I come off as a bit rough around the edges. Well I’m sure I will get better over time the further I move up the bridge but until then, these nut bags are going to get a different flavor of response from me.
These people abuse their freedoms. They rattle the cages of otherwise peaceful people. They are not being oppressed, suppressed or anything to the like. They have no reason to so vigilantly exercise their freedom of speech. They do it out of hatred. These people disgrace what me and my brothers and sisters have fought for.
To speak to you directly anonymous, you are cowards. That is why you put on your maskes and hide in your mothers basements hacking people’s computers (a violation of rights) you are pathetic cowardess crimals who weren’t man or woman enough to serve a real cause. You make me sick. A tarnish on my beautiful American soil. You stand behind the constitution that protects you but work tirelessly at tarring it down. Hypocrite. Moron. Insect. Look at your self in the mirror and ask, would I follow me?
I did OIF- twice. Lost some good friends, so if you want to pull out that card and say that I can’t talk about my consitution, go right ahead. And if you’re going to be like -this-, please don’t brag about your affiliation with the military- you make us all look bad. And I’m not decrying the freedom of religion- I gave years of my life to support it. I’m saying that you can BELIEVE what you want, but not DO what you want. THere’s a big difference.
It’s funny, because you immediately assume that I was never in the military. I patrolled the triangle of death. I was at Anaconda when the mortars started raining in. And, in MY experience, we don’t consider people that openly discuss topics like religion to be “losers”. I think that’s just you. And I’m glad that my Army buddies weren’t as judgemental as you are, that you can draw such conclusions from so little data. Do you do that a lot?
So, I stand by my comment- if I’m supporting scientology with my taxes, I have every right to criticize it. And it’s perfectly acceptable to satirize any organization which has LEGITIMATE room for growth. People like you, who are so keen to maintain the status quo, it’s just sad. It’s like you’re saying, “let’s just accept things the way they are- nobody complain about it!”
So, please explain to me why criticism and satire are a BAD thing?
Be careful with that assumption- moving “up the bridge” doesn’t necessarily make you a better person. Rex Fowler was an OT8 and a scientology minister when he murdered one of our brothers-in-arms, a military veteran ON HIS CHILD’S BIRTHDAY. Shot him, right in the head.
L. Ron Hubbard’s own wife was arrested and imprisoned for the largest domestic espionage case in US history (search for Operation Snow White). She was convicted of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property and did five years.
It was senior scientologists that sent fake bomb threats to key politicians to get a journalist arrested. Google Operation Freakout and see what the FBI found when they raided the scientology offices.
Senior scientologists have been convicted of all manner of crimes. Just, please, don’t assume that in a few months you’ll be a better person just because you’ve put in time.
There are legitimate criticisms of scientology- I’m sure you know that. Have you honestly considered them? Have you looked at both sides? Not everyone that criticizes is trying to destroy- some, many, are merely trying to improve. You can’t make such broad assumptions- not if you’re going to be a well-rounded person. If nothing else, at least be open minded and read the top few links for Scientology when you google the term- think about what you’re being a part of once your armed with ALL of the information. Can you do that, at least?
One small question, just to throw it out there. Do you know how many scientology chaplains are in the Army?
Zero.
Do you know why there aren’t any?
Because the actual number of scientologists in the US isn’t as high as you’re being told. That’s been proven time and time again with surveys and studies, both domestically and abroad. Do you ever wonder why they’re telling you numbers that aren’t true?
By legitimate do you mean personal blogs or do you mean “professional” journalist who get there information from personal blogs?
Army chaplains are not specific to any one religion moron. Try schooling someone who hasn’t served.
I have done my research. I have read all your inflammatory misinforming blogs and all I see bigotry. No proof, nothing. GET. A. LIFE. please
And how many of those chaplains cover scientology? None. There Chaplain corps covers Wicca… but not scientology. If you look at the studies, you’ll find that’s because there’s so few.
See, look at you. Your quick to insult, quick to anger, slow to understand. I did serve- learn to read. And I can tell the difference between criticizing something and trying to impede someone’s first amendment rights. Have you ever even read the constitution?
And what would you consider to be a reputable source? Court documents? The personal experiences of THOUSANDS (I have a list, if you want it) of former scientologists that have left and now oppose the group, all the way up to OT8′s (the highest level in scientology) and family members of L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige.
What does scientology offer in terms of validation? Only the statement that it “can’t be validated.”
I have a life, bro. A loving family, a great job, and the courage to stand up for what I believe, even in the face of some petty name-calling internet stranger. So, I’ll take what I got and enjoy my freedom of speech. You do the same, even if your supporting something that is a criminal organization in many countries.
I need help and Scientology has helped. I nearly killed myself because the VA was medicating me. Scientology saved my life. That’s fact. All this other nonsense doesn’t concern me. The proof is in the pudding. Christian churches hasn’t helped, none of them. All the prayers and faith in the world wasn’t going to keep me from cutting my wrist. Scientology gave me something real. They gave me something applicable to my situation. I hope more veterans discover Scientology before its too late for them. Before the VA hospital turns them into a shadow of what they once were.
Hey, bro, I’m glad it helped you. I’d be glad if wicca helped you (as it had so many) or medical science helped you (as it has so many) or if Buddhism helped you (as it has so many). I have nothing against scientologists- I’ve known, and liked, many.
It worked for you- that’s important. But please don’t think that other things don’t work for other people. The VA helps a lot of people and, like scientology, is just filled with a lot of good people that really want to help. In the VA and in scientology, there’s also some bad people- shouldn’t that be noted?
Think about what you’re saying here. You’re criticizing the VA- you’re saying that they were just medicating you and that they turn people “into a shadow of what they once were.” Can people not freely criticize scientology, which in many ways strives to do some off the same things that the VA does (ie, help people that have been someone harmed)? Isn’t the point of criticism to point out what needs to be improved upon?
Here’s a case in point- you remember the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal? Remember the cover ups and all the kids that were hurt? Are you critical of that, or do you support it? Or do you not care?
Another question, if I may- do you think Scientology “works” for everyone the same way that it worked for you?
Why don’t you ask yourself how many veterans killed them selves under the treatment of the VA. What about all the murders, rapes, and abuses people experienced in all sorts of Christian churches. What about members of anonymous and there various criminal records. On and on and on.
That doesn’t answer anything. But what about the suicides under scientology? What about the murders by scientologists? The fraud? The arrests and legal convictions? The scientologists with criminal records?
But you’re changing the subject- why?
Dude your the master of changing the subject.
yeah… okay. So are you going to ignore ALL of my questions?
I’m just talking buddy. I’m not on the Fox News channel discussing key points. There’s no rules to this game. Just me with my views and you with yours. Simple stuff
If you just want to throw out ideas, that’s fine. If you want to discuss things, that’s even better. Your call, but I’m more open to discussion and debate than throwing our random unsupported concepts. To each his own, I guess.
Frankly, I don’t think you’ve approached the whole thing with an open mind. But that’s just me talking.
I’m trying to ignore you all together but you’ve found a place under my skin.
Is that right? I’ll tell you what- I’ll make it easy on you. I won’t reply any more- I think I’ve made my points and said my peace. If you’re strong enough to let the whole thing go, I won’t say anything more to you.
Deal?
I have actually approached it with an open mind ok. Lord knows I’ve been up for days making sure I wasn’t being sucked in by a “cult”. But if you think I don’t have an open mind because I don’t agree with you or don’t trust your sources or don’t answer every single question you have so you can control the conversation then I guess your right.
No deal. Lets keep this up. I love getting no where with a perfect stranger. It’s Sunday and I have nothing to do at the moment. When I’m tired ill let you know.. Deal
Heh, I guess you can’t let it go. Oh, well, I tried.
Have you read about the legal convictions? Have you considered the word of thousands of former scientologists that have spoken out about the current management? Have you considered the actual science behind some of the claims, like the purif rundown? Have you researched how David Miscavige rose to power? Have you read any of the court documents and legal briefs?
Maybe you have- I hope you have. And I TRULY hope that you’ve found something that works for you. But we have to circle back to the original point, Andy. People WILL criticize your group, and there are areas that could be improved upon. People have as much right to do that as you do to criticize the VA. Don’t assume that they’re all bad people for that- they’re real people with friends and family and jobs. And many of them, those that criticize, do so because they themselves had very bad experiences with the group or “lost” (in their opinion) friends or family members to it.
Did you look up Operation Freakout or Operation Snow White, as I mentioned earlier?
wrong spot- trying again:
Well, I’ll only go for as long as my wife’s getting pampered at the day spa. When she gets back, I’m taking a break :)
What is right?
I don’t understand the question.
Sweet a day spa sounds nice
A few things to consider:
L. Ron Hubbard kept copious notes, so it’s pretty easy to tell who he intended to do what. Why is there no record of David Miscavige being appointed as the “Ecclesiastical Head of Scientology?” Why does he hold a position not created by Hubbard? Why is the President of Scientology so silent?
This is a big one for us military folks- why did L. Ron Hubbard lie about his war record? You probably encountered this in your research, so I don’t need to go over it again. But he claimed that things happened that are specifically refuted by his official record. He also claimed awards that didn’t even exist yet! Could you trust someone that lies about their military record?
Hubbard had three wives- and was married to two at the same time. He met one wife while hanging out with Satanist Jack Parsons, when he “took” Parson’s girlfriend (founder of the church of satan, Aleister Crowley called hubbard a con man), and married her while still married to another. His third wife went to jail for her role in Operation Snow White and his son called him a fraud. One of his wives, Sara, accused him of “systematic torture, beatings, strangulations and scientific torture experiments.” And yet, he feels qualified to give medical advice.
Why does Scientology claim “millions” of members, but every study, survey or census has proven otherwise? Is this not a lie?
Have you ever read freedom magazine? Horrible thing, that. Why do they print the private confessions of former scientologists that they consider to be “enemies”, including details of their sex lives. Where did they get that information, and why would the publish it? Have you ever seen what happens to people that leave scientology and speak out about their experiences? They’re treated very well once they’re in, but once they speak out… Google “scientology fair game” and you’ll see some of the horror stories.
Why have so many high-ranking scientologists left? Including senior executives and OT8s…. Why is the tech being altered? Why have some of the core scientology books been changed from what Hubbard wrote? For that matter, why does each e-meter come with a warning that it doesn’t actually physically DO anything (as required by the FDA).
Why did Hubbard seek out the care of psychiatrists when he left the military? For that matter, why did he die with psychiatric drugs in his system (as noted in the autopsy).
Just a few thoughts that I had.
I’d imagine it would be. But I don’t like gunk on my face, so maybe it’s not for me.
Well basically I’m thinking if every organization, religion, or group can be criticized, or has done wrong, or is guilty for… Something. If all of this is based on what is wrong, then what is right. How is the VA more right than Scientology, how are the catholic and Christian churches more right than Scientology, how is psychiatry more right than Scientology. And really—what is right?
And I think it’s funny that women are so hard to please but when you offer putting mud on there face they are as happy as can be.
“Well basically I’m thinking if every organization, religion, or group can be criticized, or has done wrong, or is guilty for… Something. If all of this is based on what is wrong, then what is right. How is the VA more right than Scientology, how are the catholic and Christian churches more right than Scientology, how is psychiatry more right than Scientology. And really—what is right?”
EXACTLY! That’s what I was saying from the beginning. EVERY group is open to criticism, but how they respond to criticism is what defines the group. You’re very critical of the VA because you think there’s problems that need to be fixed. If you can be critical of the VA, can a former scientologist be critical of the management structure of scientology?
It’s not a matter of “more right” as much as it is a matter of “addressing wrong”.
I think some jilted guy invented the concept just to get revenge :)
Lol
I’m not sure if addressing what is wrong is the answer to what is right… I think you dodged me on that one. But what is wrong is important absolutely. Both of which I believe is a matter of perception.
If you don’t address what is wrong, there’s no reason to fix it. If people settle for less-than-perfect, there’s no real drive to change and grow. Criticism is a good thing, it can be healing. Think of Martin Luther- was he not a critic? And yet, didn’t he bring reform in the church?
I don’t think I dodged anything, but if you clarify what you think I dodged I’d be happy to clarify?
Oops sorry, I missed a point. How they respond to criticism… I mean how do Christians and Catholics and Muslims respond to Criticism? I think the church of Scientology has been rather meek in their responses to their criticizers comparatively
What I feel your dodging is bluntly what is right? What should I trust to help me? Should I go to the VA and suffer until maybe they find out what they are doing wrong?
Why is the churches beliefs wrong if it is right for so many others?
What do you consider meek? They’ve sued many, many critics and dedicated entire magazine editions to attacking them (specifically freedom magazine) and created websites to do the same. That’s with member money, by the way. They’ve hired private investigators to track former members. And, I remind you of the practice of “fair game” and disconnection, both of which are well-documented online. That’s meek to you?
I can’t think of anything nearly as severe that any other church has done. The Catholic church received a great deal of criticism during the sex abuse scandal. You know what they did? They changed.
“Right” for someone is individual, isn’t it? Like I said before, if scientology works for you- AWESOME! Keep at it! But we can’t pretend that means that there’s nothing worthy of criticism within the group. There are areas that need improvement, areas that aren’t right- can you at least acknowledge that small fact?
Look at your own example. You criticize the VA and decided it didn’t work for you. But how can it be wrong if it works for so many others?
So we circle back to another previous point (which I think addresses your question)- is scientology “right” for everyone?
What is right for me? I mean if you take something from me and say it is wrong then what are you going to give me that is right? Or should I just stand here with nothing but all that is wrong? What then do I have to be right? What then do I have at all? I have nothing. I believe (for me) that Scientology is right. I believe they have answered my questions and given me tools. This is right for me. And Scientology IS a religion. Just as much as a Christian or a Muslim. And all of the religions in the world. My right to practice my religion is my right and I have done something to secure that. I have sacrificed to believe what I choose. It’s just annoying when people criticize but that’s never going away not for any religion.
To further clarify, I don’t want to see scientology destroyed. In fact, most of the “critics” that I know don’t want scientology to be destroyed. They merely see things that need to be improved upon and want to see that happen. They want it improved- shouldn’t you want the same?
Well I’m glad you clarified that. I honestly thought otherwise. Well I see where you are coming from. But I don’t see what needs to be improved. That’s me though. I just don’t see the “wrong” in the church. I read what people say but I need more hard facts than he said she said. I need actual court documents. And then a law degree to totally understand the whole thing lol. But I don’t have any of those things. What I do have is an improved life
Do I think Scientology is right for everyone? That’s impossible. Do I believe Scientology can help everyone that comes to it and believes it is right for them? Yes
And I’m very glad that you have an improved life. Just as I’m sure you’re glad when people’s lives are improved by the VA, no?
Wouldn’t you say it’s normal for any organization of any size to have areas that need improvement? I mean, no organization is perfect, is it? Perhaps we can think of something; what about the practice of using member’s money to create websites and print magazines attacking former members- do you support that? Or what about the stories that the church tells about L. Ron Hubbard’s war record, which are proven false by his military record jacket? You don’t support lying about someone’s military history, do you?
And Scientology had made improvements. They have improved. The church has made corrections. So at this moment in time I believe Scientology is not in need of further improvement no
“Do I think Scientology is right for everyone? That’s impossible. Do I believe Scientology can help everyone that comes to it and believes it is right for them? Yes”
I’ve heard that argument many times- on this very blog, in fact. So you’re saying that you have to believe it’s right for you before you have any evidence to support it? I’m not sure if you’re familiar with “exteriorization” (the scientology belief that high-level members can leave their body at will), but that has similar validation. It’s even been said on this site- one can “believe” that they’re exterior of their body, they just can’t see anything that exists in the physical world.
I have to ask, though- with that being the case- why have so many former scientologists, including OT8′s, left scientology? This includes Norway’s ONLY OT8, Geir Isene, who had some very interesting things to say. Have you seen the list of thousands of scientologists that have left the church and complained about specifically management? Does that indicate that, just maybe, there are some problems within the church structure?
Okay, so you’re saying there WERE problems, but there are no longer? When did they become perfect (perfect, in the sense of having no room for improvement)?
Military records are a tricky situation it’s not as black and white as it obviously should be. Talk to anyone who works in that department. They are all baffled. My records where totally fucked when I got out. But I don’t have his records and I honestly do not trust the record keepers. Like I said its a tricky situation.
As far as the VA helping soldiers, never seen it with my own eyes.
And the situation with members money for this or that. Man I personally don’t care.
My records were fine, but to each their own. What about the records that he claimed that didn’t even exist yet? I’ve actually never seen awards missing on a military record- they’re so carefully tracked at so many levels. But, even if his records were lost at the higher level, they would have existed with his command. Or he should have had a copy. There’s simply no record of him having the awards that even existed at the time, much less the ones that didn’t exist at the time. Google “Ron the War Hero” for a full analysis of this. You can also see letters that he himself wrote in his records, and you can see the assessments of his commanders (he was relieved of duty many times- one commander said that he was “unfit” for command.). You can even see the record of when he accidentally shelled a resort in mexico and the time he attacked a mineral deposit thinking it was a submarine; you can see all that with your own eyes. My only point is that he said many things that have been since proven to be false; I only hope that you won’t accept what he said without considering that.
I’ve seen the VA help soldiers, but it’s fine that you haven’t observed it. Didn’t you qualify for the education benefits? Or the VA home loan program? What about those that get tricare for life, which helped a friend of mine get life-saving medicine he wouldn’t have been able to afford otherwise? Aren’t those things helpful?
Finally, why don’t you care? This is money that people are paying for courses or auditing, thinking they’re helping to better conditions for the planet- why should it be used to smear former members? And doesn’t it concern you that they print very personal information in those magazines, calling one former member a “harlot” and printing details of her sex life? Are you okay with that?
Correction: the VA mental health department. Never seen any results worthy of being called helped. They numb you. They lock you up and drug you against your will. They threaten to per mantle lock you up or imprison you if you do comply. And me personally, I had one friend die in rehab and one hung himself with a rope he made out of bed sheets… We had elderly vets that where being abused (seen with my own eyes) and uncared for by the staff. Us younger vets had had to care for them. These are WWI and WWII vets I’m talking about. Can’t people protest that shit
I don’t have any eve dense that the church did that first of all. And 2, damn that sucks to have a website dedicated to your sex life lol. I don’t know man give me some hard facts. Was it the church or a member?
“Can’t people protest that shit”
YES! They should! You should, as you feel passionate about it! Write letters, carry a sign, make a difference! People could and should protest such things- people do, believe it or not. And you should be a part of that.
People should get involved every time they think that things need to change. So now you can see why people protest scientology. You may not AGREE with their conclusions, but they feel just like you do about the VA. They see news articles about people (a vet, I remind you) being shot by a scientology minister. They read accounts of families broken up by the disconnection policy. They read about the fair game policy, and they oppose it.
Just like you do about the VA.
It’s not about religion, Andy. No one’s protesting scientology just because it’s a religion. It’s because they see a wrong, or something they perceive as a wrong, and they fight against it. Isn’t that okay?
“I don’t have any eve dense that the church did that first of all. And 2, damn that sucks to have a website dedicated to your sex life lol. I don’t know man give me some hard facts. Was it the church or a member?”
It was the church itself. They publish “freedom magazine” and printed a whole piece about Amy Scobee- they printed pictures of her in a bikini and talked about her sex life. According to her, she said those things in confidence to her minister, not knowing that they would later be published and sent to all of her friends!
The church also owns “Religious Freedom Watch”, one of their many websites used to attack critics. They post unflattering picture and attack them on the site. What’s worse, they used to offer a BOUNTY for information about other critics!
Oh, they also published the fact that she confessed (while in the church) to having an affair. That private matter between her and her husband was sent to every scientologists that reads the magazine, just because management called her an “enemy”.
I read it just now. Looks like the church fights back. Bunch of gobbly gue. I think if someone was trying to make horrible lies about me I would tell horrible truths about them in the same manner. It’s not like they are being burned alive or tortured to death. It’s protecting ones honor. Did you support Iraq or Afghanistan?
I mean she attacked the church and betrayed them. It’s a long used philosophy that if you discredit someone, then they can not affect you. Lawyers do it all the time with good reason. John said the worlds ending. – wow John, your so convincing, thank you for telling me – wait.. John escaped from a mental institution for several murders.. Damn John I don’t think you know what your talking about I mean you did murder peopl and escape from a mental institution.
“Fights back”??? So you support what they did? You can so easily dismiss her experiences as “lies” and use their word alone to say that it’s okay to send her private confessions to her friends and strangers? You see no problem with a church revealing confession details and sending it to someone’s friends, just because they spoke out? Why is it, then, that no other church needs to send out magazines about their critics?
Please tell me you don’t actually support such a thing.
Yes, I did support Iraq and Afghanistan. Not all of the methods and not all of the things that occured, but overall.
But that’s a moot point. I’m going to spend some time with my wife. I hope to come back and find out that you don’t actually approve of using church member funds to attack former members. Wow. That would be disgusting.
So I saw discrediting not abuse.
Come on show me some juicy stuff like the church cutting off someone’s head. Yeah then I might take a few steps back. Or run like hell!
I just love my church man, this guy is totally happy with his church ..woot woot.
If they ask me to strap a bomb to my chest then I might not be so happy but luckily that’s not happening.
final thought for now- privately confessing to an affair is not the same as committing murder. That’s the sort of private thing that you should not use when trying to attack your former friend. It’s not relevant to her statements and she confessed it thinking it was in private. They only wanted to embarrass her, which is horrible. Are you the sort of person that would do that to your former friend?
I hope not. Later.
Discrediting a former member is totally cool with me. You think that’s disgusting then that’s your purgative. I mean I also support interrogating techniques that other people see as “torture” it’s a matter of perception.
Ok sir, good getting no where with you lol but really it was cool. Get back to your life and enjoy your time with your wife. ;)
Dude if someone betrayed me you can be sure all bets are off
But seeing it that way is exactly the problem. Who did she betray by speaking out about what she observed? She merely talked about her personal experiences- and had her private information spread merely for speaking her mind. You support that?
Let’s put it in that context, then. If you did something wrong, and your friend joined THOUSANDS of others that pointed you did wasn’t right, you would have no problem with taking secrets that they told you during the course of your friendship and trying to embarrass them with it? I do think that’s a despicable point of view, and I really hope that you don’t share it with scientology. It’s petty, hypocritical and mean-spirited, and I would not want to be aligned with any group that intentionally did it.
The other aspect to it is that it’s NOT okay, for some reason, for her to share what she saw while she was in, but it’s somehow okay for THEM to share what she told them. That’s hypocritical.
And if you think that’s okay, then it’s no wonder why you can’t think of a single problem with the group. If you can’t think of even a single thing that’s wrong with management, then you’re willfully ignoring a lot. And I get it- it worked for you, so you deep down need for it to be a perfect organization. That’s fine for you, but a dangerous way to live- and a way that I choose not to.
I came here to say that criticism is a good thing, and that no organization is exempt from it. I think I’ve established that. I’m glad scientology worked for you, and I hope that you can give at least some regard to the hundreds of scientologists that have died (suicide after losing all their money, being murdered by a scientology minister, etc), and to the many thousands that left the group and have shared their negative experiences. Somehow, though, I can’t picture you acknowledging their experiences as valid.
Good night; I’m off to sleep with the missus. I hope that, if nothing else, you’ve changed your perception that all critics live sad, boring and fulfilling lives. Please, consider the list of considerations that I posted. Google Operation Snow White and Operations Freakout (you wanted an example of cutting off someone’s head? How about trying to make someone kill themselves- close enough?)- those were scientology operations, and there’s plenty of court records about them. You don’t need a law degree to understand it any more than you do any of the other countless court cases.
I won’t say the name, but Google search Youtube for:
The Wall of Fire – Scientology OTIII Lecture
You can hear Hubbard say IN HIS OWN VOICE some of the things that scientology has denied on camera.
Just know what you’re supporting. It’s great that it worked for you, but please put some thought into the criticism and see what you can do to make scientology better. Scientology is shrinking, Andy. You can search the internet for “number of scientologists” and see the studies and surveys for yourself. It’s shrinking because so many scientologists ignore the problems and think that nothing’s wrong, so many others are leaving in droves and others are refusing to join.
People that have been in scientology for their whole lives are leaving. People that have made it to the top of the bridge are leaving. Family members of church leaders are leaving. Don’t you wonder why that is? It’s because people are so busy trying to smear critics that they’re not listening to what they’re saying. But who is listening is the public. In fact, a recent survey found that most respondents had a negative view of scientologists. But scientology continues to insist that everything is “good roads and fair weather.”
That’s why it’s shrinking. And only people like you can change that.
Good night.
Ok that’s allot of view point. Once again there is no real evidence of these accusations. And what if the lady lied through her teeth in trying to destroy the church? How can you take her word?
So basically what I found is she is what scientologist call a squirrel… Which I think is really funny.
Here’s what is said of that:
Here is the guy who plans to “squirrel” and “grab Scientology.” Here is the boy. Or here is the girl. But here is also a thetan buried in the mud. And if you let this person go without attention, he or she will soon become ill or die — or worse will mess up or kill others. The person is the only real psycho. And if you let him drift he’ll soon wind up in the brain surgeon’s suppressive hands. So it’s nothing to overlook. People who have to solve their problems by shooting the rest of us down are what made life such a hell in this universe. You have your hands on the implanter, the warmonger, the wrecker. (L. Ron Hubbard, Policy Letter of 5 April 1965, titled “The No-Case-Gain Student”)
So like I said, the church is defending itself against someone they feel is a serious threat. They don’t take these people lightly as most would.
And I will keep my eyes open. If I see with my own eyes this behavior, or if someone tries abusing me like these people say is happening. I will skull drag that person into the street and beat them within an inch of their life on national tv. (Not a very scientology thing to do by the way) Have no doubts that I am awake and not ignorant to crimes or what crimes look like but I have to see it. I need facts. None of this has a leg to stand on.
Note: I am hoping Scientology can free me of the sociopathic behavior that the military conditioned me into. They have helped so far but I admit I’m kind of a psycho and have no place in speaking for Scientology. I hope to be a good case for Scientology. And like I said I have greatly improved so far so I’m sure all will be great and I will look back on this thread in horror of myself.
I hope you do, my friend. In time, I hope that you can look back with horror and realize that it’s not healthy to so readily use such personal information to destroy people that speak out against you. It’s not healthy, it’s not beneficial, and it’s not a good thing. Scientology very well may help you with that, and in general. I have nothing against scientologists, but I hope that you’ve changed your mind a little bit about why some people are critical.