I am closing this thread because it is very mixed and has exceeded any original Anonymous questions and mixed that with other stuff. We’ll continue this on another page. Let me assure you that I do understand the way you think and that I have thought that way often enough when the hype was going against this or that group.
Prejudice sets in and a certain blindness for facts occurs and – for me this is still true with Anonymous – ruthless liars take over, leading the group, pounding the group with the same disinformation over and over until it does not really matter anymore if reality matches any of the propaganda. As it is the case right now where anything “the Church” says is marked with suspicion. At this stage, otherwise normal citizens behave like lemmings, allow that they are lead against otherwise normal people who have done no wrong, not personally and not indirectly by support. With many groups such provocation would lead to war but Scientologists are strange folks, they continue to communicate despite of anything.

It is a fact that some few Anonymous people have set out to destroy – “dismantle” – a religious group, censor them, impede their constitutional rights, all under the flag of “being right” and certainly anonymous, i.e. without taking any responsibility for their actions, hiding behind a mask. You too have been bought off by disinformation. Believe me I know how great it feels to be in a group of like-minded people, seemingly “fighting” against the “great evil”. You don’t feel the cold or the rain then. But your target was invented by somebody else, your group is held together by lies, a “virtual reality”, illusions.

You got a chance – if you care – to find out the truth about Scientology. But this is the way of balance and looking and learning. It’s fun though and it pays off. And you will find that there are more people like that, free people.

- Lu

“Yeah, right. A very organized “spontaneous” movement that was. I think you were waiting for a “good reason” to launch your plan of 2007 and then came along the Cruise video.”

Personally, I had been watching the actions of the Church of Scientology for years. I soaked up what information I could, emphasizing primary sources. I knew they were bad news, but they seemed harmless and out of the way. But when the first Anonymous video went up on Youtube, I looked deeper. And I found terrible things. I became Anonymous. I was not part of the group before, and I would decry some of their actions (past ddos, myspace, etc) if asked. I’ve seen hundreds of stories just like mine and I’m sure there are thousands more.

Hell, the chans make fun of us now. I don’t even care if they’re trolling or plants or whatever, because this is bigger than them. Many large internet communities got involved in the last month just like me.

As an aside, the parallels we are drawing fascinate me. Anonymous claims the CoS is bad, because of Freakout and Snow White and Lisa McPherson and dozens of other things. You claim those were renegade groups acting outside of the Church. You claim Anonymous is bad, because of ddos attacks, white powder, and personal harassment. We claim those were individuals who do not represent Anonymous.

So, if both sides are telling the truth, how do you decide? For one thing, look at the official response to negative acts like this. When that Anonymous bomb threat went up on Youtube, I sent the FBI a tip myself. I flagged the video for removal. I also noticed that not one comment was in support of the video. There was no support on enturbulation or another forum I read, both filled with this new breed of Anonymous. That tells me that the bomb threat was not an action that can be attributed to Anonymous.

I have seen no source outside of Scientologists themselves connecting the white powder to Anonymous. If you have one, I would like to see it.

I acknowledge the DDOS attacks, though I took no part. I recognize that they were wrong. Mark Bunker made some very good points, and Anonymous largely agreed with him. The attacks lasted only a few days. Also, I have seen no source claiming the $500,000 damages that you mention, including everything you linked.

What I have seen was a completely peaceful protest. The one I was at drew approximately 100 protestors in -30F windchills, most of them staying for hours. A hundred other protests drew thousands more. As far as I am aware, no Anonymous was arrested in connection with these protests. The Church of Scientology cannot make the same claim about its members.

As far as the Church’s current actions, I see Fair Game continuing against reporters and critics. I see lies about the numbers of members in the Church. I see front groups with no training for what they are doing, using methods with no proven results, as little more than thinly-veiled recruiting mechanisms reaching out to vulnerable people.

Note that I capitalize Church. I am referring to the organization known as the Church of Scientology. I realize it is classified as a religious or non-profit organization in many countries, but I don’t believe it should be able to hide behind this. As a ridiculous analogy, imagine the mafia of the 1920s meeting in the back of “Terry’s Happy Kitty Pet Store and Orphanage.” Why did the police raid a pet store? Why do they hate kitties?

This is exactly my attitude towards the Church of Scientology, the Citizen’s Commission on Human Rights, and Religous Freedom Watch. None of them deserve their name, and they should not be able to hide behind it.

I don’t hate you, Lu. I don’t hate any Scientologist. I honestly don’t care what you believe. I fully support individual choice and freedom of religion. If you can’t understand that, maybe you can’t understand this movement at all.

Did the US court system tell every Enron mail clerk that they were bad, terrible, misled people? No. The illegal activities were carried out on a much higher level. People picketed against Enron. They did not hate the employees, but the organization and its upper management. Anonymous is doing much the same.

I can’t see or feel YOU. Does that mean you’re not a Scientologist? What crimes have you committed that make you afraid to reveal your true identity?

“Because nothing like this ever happened again in more than 30 years.”

Until now, of course. The bomb threats, the white powder… they have all the marks of a false-flag operation run by the Church leadership. They came from people who don’t understand Anonymous, and the only people who don’t understand Anonymous are members of the Church of Scientology. Heck, you guys have already promised more Black PR for the March 15th protests.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/57bc5411da13aff8

There may have been an “organizational change,” but there was never a change in policy. It’s the same concept behind the Cancellation of Fair Game letter, really. “This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP.” In other words, you’re still allowed to fair-game critics; you’re just not allowed to call it that.

What do you know of RPF? Its the SeaOrgs prison labor camp.

Nope, I don’t plan to sell the e-meter I have. I was fortunate to get it off of an ex member for around $200. My favorite part is the little sticker(that the FDA made them put on it) that says it does nothing.

Ill post the “fixed donation” price sheet when I find the link.

“Now I can claim that the perpetrators of Operations Freakout and Snow White were genuine Scientologists following Hubbard’s instructions to the letter, and that the Church of Scientology as a whole is a criminal organization full of religious extremists who will do anything, legal or illegal, to silence opposition. And why should I believe you when you say otherwise? Because you raise your right hand and say “I promise I’m not a terrorist”? Well, if you’re a terrorist, you’ve probably been trained to lie, so I can’t trust a word that comes out of your mouth (or your fingers, as is the case online).”

You are trying to mix two things which don’t mix. A Scientologist can be seen, felt, he bleeds, he talks. A member of “Anonymous” is meant to be an “ill wind”, masked, unidentified, a sick concept executed by some criminals for the harm of others.

But thanks for the explanation. Is that the reason why you dug out long gone accusations and crimes done by people who died already years ago or are not active since decades, because it’s so nice and handy to produce “guilt by association” with it? Freakout and Snow White are not defensible as far as their criminal actions go. But on the other hand they are both good examples how the organizational change, disbanding the Guardian’s Office, handled the problem of criminals getting on power positions. Because nothing like this ever happened again in more than 30 years.

- Lu

“There are “fixed donations” that people have to pay for each level.”

THAT is a lie. Where do you get this nonsense from? There are no fixed donations for each level. Why don’t you go in a church and ask there too.

“Why does auditing cost alot of money.”

Not a lot of money but carefully calculated to keep the church organization going and surviving, without having reserved from thousands of years of donation collection or properties inherited by late members. It Economics 1. You will have to make a little money to build and sustain an organization.

“Why are members not allowed to sell their old e-meters to new members?”

They are. The church however wants to ensure that they are not misused or used without proper maintenance, i.e. check of the electronics and rechargeables, because that could make it defunct and mess up people. You got one to sell?

“What about do you think about SeaOrg members only being paid a few hundred dollars a month? ”

It’s not up to me to decide for their lives and those dedicated Scientologists in the Sea Organization are free to decide whether they want to serve as religious workers or not. There are other religious orders which do not pay anything to their members, run farms or profitable breweries or send their members on the street to beg for food and money for all members. Different traditions and arrangements exist to make sure that the respective religion survives. The Sea Org provides room and board, training, clothing etc for free and gives some money for personal expenses.

- Lu

Lu, what you’re doing is called “guilt by association”. Let me turn your argument on its head so that you can see the problem.

“That’s theory, right? The practice is different. Crimes and terror are committed in the name of Scientology, face it. You might call such guys ‘traitors to the tech’ but they still call themselves Scientologists.”

See? Easy. Now I can claim that the perpetrators of Operations Freakout and Snow White were genuine Scientologists following Hubbard’s instructions to the letter, and that the Church of Scientology as a whole is a criminal organization full of religious extremists who will do anything, legal or illegal, to silence opposition. And why should I believe you when you say otherwise? Because you raise your right hand and say “I promise I’m not a terrorist”? Well, if you’re a terrorist, you’ve probably been trained to lie, so I can’t trust a word that comes out of your mouth (or your fingers, as is the case online). It’s a catch-22.

Why does auditing cost alot of money. Confession in a curch is free?

E-meters run up to $4,500 for the newest models. Why are members not allowed to sell their old e-meters to new members? Scientology has conned eBay to allow them to remove any listing of e-meters. A couple of independent studies have stated that the e-meter cant cost more than a few hundred dollars to produce. Why the outrageous mark up?

What about do you think about SeaOrg members only being paid a few hundred dollars a month? Or that they are not able to see their except for a few hours a week if they are lucky.

I’m not trying to be rude but the entire organization seems to be based around the philosophy of getting as much money as absolutely possible from its members.

“1. Who exactly is controlling Anonymous? Is it the Germans, the Psychiatrists, the Marcabians, or is it some other unknown entity.”

Germans: no. Psychiatrists: no. Marcabians: WTF. Some other unknown entity: maybe. I think it is just the same group of propagandists which makes a living of pounding on Scientologists. Anonymous as a body of people is just a bunch of lemmings as far as they think they have to ridicule Scientologists. I am providing the opportunity to get a balanced view. Take it.

“2. What do you think about David Miscavige altering(squirreling) the tech? Didn’t LHR say that was not supposed to be done?”

I think this is another propaganda spin to invalidate the religious leader of the Church of Scientology. Most of the Scientology material would not be available without his programs to recover old tapes, films and typewritten manuscripts. Lucky enough for all Scientologists he and those involved were faster than some squirrel organizations could fill the gap with rewritten and confused materials.

“3. How can a “religion” based on communication keep its beliefs secret except to those who pay upwards of $300,000.”

You know the answer to this “question” (statement). How do I know? You lie about Scientology though you have enough insight to ask me about “squirreling”. You know that there is no price tag in Scientology. And that there is no payment of $300,000 to read some “secret texts”. That would be odd indeed. More about that is on the website here:

http://www.scientologymyths.info/scriptures/
http://www.scientologymyths.info/aliens/

- Lu

I was typing a first answer…. but there is more to be said, give me a day or so.

- Lu